When evangelists knock on your door...

[Deeje]

The gospel is the gospel. What kingdom do you mean, the kingdom in heaven or on earth? All of this is the Good News.
The church fulfills everyone who proclaims the true gospel.

Just what I expect from someone such as yourself.....The "Gospel" is "good news" that Jesus asked us to spread to all who would listen. God's Kingdom was the theme of his entire ministry....so what is the "good news" of God's Kingdom? He taught us to pray for it to "come"....how does it "come"? How is God's will then "done, on earth as it is in heaven"? Please explain.

Jesus clearly died on a cross that proves the Scriptures.
Here is the explanation: Did Jesus really die on the cross? | CARM.org

Ah, so these are your teachers...? The word "crucify" is "stauroo" which means....

1. "to stake, drive down stakes
2. to fortify with driven stakes, to palisade
3. to crucify" (Strongs)

The instrument used to execute Jesus was a "stauros"...hence the the word "stauroo".
A "stauros" is an upright stake. It never means two beams crossed at any angle.

From your link....
"There is dispute on the Greek word for "cross" which is "stauros." It can mean an upright stake or a cross. Therefore, some groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, say that Jesus died on a vertical stake. But then, others simply deny that Jesus was crucified at all and they claim He died of old age or some other natural sickness. Both of these conjectures are in error according to the New Testament.

First of all, there is a verse in the New Testament that demonstrates Jesus did not die on a vertical stake without a cross bar. If Jesus died on a vertical stake, then His hands would have been placed together over His head, one on top of another. It would be very easy to then take a single nail and drive it through both wrists at the same time. This is how crucifixion was done when victims were crucified in this manner. However, if a person was crucified on a cross, then two nails were required, one for each wrist, since the hands would be spread apart.

If we look at John 20:25 we see that the plural word "nails" is used in reference to Jesus' hands.

"The other disciples therefore were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I shall see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe," (NASB).

The plural form "nails" is used. This means that more than one nail was used upon Jesus' hands. Therefore, we can conclude that the most logical explanation for the plural use of nails is that there is at least two nails, one for each hand that was stretched out from left to right as would be done if Jesus were crucified on a cross. This would mean that the torture stake, or the vertical stake theory would be invalid."

It seems to me that the 'doubting Thomas' was referring to the fact that Jesus was nailed to the stake with both hands and feet....that would imply a plural number of nails.

the cross is holy, God himself already prophesied the cross in Genesis. For He said to Noah that he should build the ark foursided. The ark symbolizes the fourfold cross. Through the ark Noah and his family were saved because they believed and through the cross every person can be saved if he believes. Remember one thing, everything, every single detail was prophesied in the Old Testament.

You seem to miss the point all together......it simply doesn't matter what the instrument was.....it is idolized....images are made of it, which was against God's law. The cross pre-dates Christianity by many centuries and it has very grubby origins.

The foursided ark....is a symbol of a cross? Seriously, where did you get that one?
Peter's words ring truer for me....

1 Peter 3:18-22...
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."

The ark was what saved Noah and his family through the deluge.....what did Peter say...? That eight souls were carried safely through the water....baptism is what corresponds with that. I see nothing in the ark's construction mentioned by God that included a cross. The very fact that it was an "ark" means that it was a chest, not a boat. It had no bow or stern or rudder. It was merely designed to float....and it did beautifully.

At least you admit this thing was wrong. Other Jehovah's Witnesses I talked to about it didn't see it as bad. You have to consider that he has a pyramid built where you can see a fallen cross. If you know only a little about occultism, you know what it means.

Do you see any of those symbols used by Jehovah's Witnesses this century? You do realize that that you are going back a hundred years? I hope we have moved on in our knowledge a great deal since then. I think they still celebrated Christmas back then......haven't touched Christmas or Easter for a very long time. Once you find out the origins of these things, you have to abandon them.

And Proverbs 4:18 means that faith is getting stronger. But it doesn't mean that people who adhere to the Bible constantly spread false teachings.

Proverbs 4:18...
"But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day.." (ESV)

It's talking about the light on the path of the righteous one.....about the path we tread that gets more enlightened with time. That has certainly been our experience.

All my beliefs are based on the Bible.

So does everyone else.....the plain fact is...they can't all be right. What makes you more right than me?

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons have a lot in common:

They have very, very few beliefs in common with us.
We have no life before birth and after death.
Adam and Eve were not heroes for taking the fruit. The earth is not populated because they had to sin to have sex.
Jesus did not travel to the USA after his resurrection and as far as I know, the nations mentioned in the book of Mormon....there is no proof that they ever existed.
An angel named Moroni is not mentioned in the Bible as giving golden plates to Joe Smith.
There is no mention of any scripture to follow the writings of the apostles.
Its a strange religion IMO.

My faith comes from the Bible and my teachers are the prophets and the apostles.

You have your own interpretation of the Bible and your teachers are certainly not the prophets or the apostles if you fail to follow what they teach.
Your take on scripture looks like a grab from a spiritual smorgasbord of weird ideas. You've been shopping in the great celestial supermarket just like all the other lone rangers in the world. You belong to no church...so who are your brothers? With whom do you meet for worship? (Hebrews 10:24-25) Who else believes what you do?

It is nice that you do not take part in wars, but firstly you are not free of sins like any other group

I don't recall ever saying that we were free of sins......no human is. But I hope we just try harder than most.

and secondly you are not the only ones who refuse to do military service.
The Bohemian Brethren, the Hutterites, the Mennonites, the Quakers, and the Christadelphians are all religious groups like you who refuse military service.

So......? Isn't it good that others too recognize that Jesus said no bloodshed. "Those who live by the sword [gun, bomb, tank] will die by the sword [gun, bomb, tank]" (Mark 26:52; 2 Corinthians 10:3-4)

Anyone who claims to be Christians but who will kill their enemies for their government are not being obedient to the Christ. We are to 'love our enemies' (Matthew 5:44-45).....you can't do that with a gun, a tank or a bomb.

There's not really any difference.

If you think there is no difference then you would compromise on Christian neutrality because you can't tell what it is. Civilian service for a JW is not serving the interests of war in any way. Not driving ambulances, not working in medical evac units, not making munitions or weapons......nothing connected to the war effort. That would be consenting. There can be no compromise.

 

[Deeje]

The Bible teaches eternal hell. (Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10) (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) (Luke 16:19-31) (Mark 9:45-46) (Matthew 8:12)

Will tackle this tomorrow....it needs a response all by itself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe their beliefs and yours are the same?

If they are different...I have no problem in learning new things. That's how I look at it...an opportunity to learn something, to expand my knowledge. Just 7 months ago, two Mormons were coming to my home every week. We had some great discussions, we all learned from each other.

It's all in how you look at it.

Are you as open to being converted to their beliefs as you hope they are to yours?

 

[stvdv]

The apostle Paul explained it this way....
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have?

Seems to me that apostle Paul implies ... "unbelievers are lawlessness". Quite a statement.

The apostle Paul explained it this way....
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers ...... Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever?

Both are human. Though some Atheists feel more humane than some believers IMO

So this is why we do what we do. To help others to become one of God's "sons and daughters".....is the greatest privilege a human can ever receive. But there are conditions that have to be met. That means we have to find God's religion, not just search for the one that suits us.

I go one step further ... I did not have to find God's religion ... I was guided in the perfect path for me

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Are you as open to being converted to their beliefs as you hope they are to yours?

I need to see (read) their evidence from Scripture. I haven’t found any that make as much sense as Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I’m always willing to learn.

Are you?

 

[stvdv]

I need to see (read) their evidence from Scripture. I haven’t found any that make as much sense as Jehovah’s Witnesses, but I’m always willing to learn.

Are you?

Be honest ... if you have 100% time to dedicate to religion ... how much (%) you use to dedicate to Jehovah Witness
Are you a good Jehovah Witness if you only dedicate 10% to your own religion?
If you dedicate 100% to your own religion, are you really open and willing to learn about other's religion?

I think religious people should never claim "My religion is the best (as a fact)"
Because it is a fact that they don't study other scriptures as much as their own
Because it is a fact there are too many scriptures to study them all in depth

So such a claim is just not so smart

 

[Deeje]

The Bible teaches eternal hell. (Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10) (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) (Luke 16:19-31) (Mark 9:45-46) (Matthew 8:12)

Lets take them one at a time....

Revelation 14:9-11...
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

A brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.

All opposers will be destroyed as if with fire and brimstone. Then it is “the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever and ever” in that God’s judgment of them will serve as a touchstone if ever again Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty is challenged. That issue will have been settled for all eternity.

Revelation 20:10...
" and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I think it is important to understand that death and hades are also thrown into this "lake".

Revelation 20:13-15....
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

If you think that death and hades can be thrown into a literal "lake of fire" then you need to rethink what it could mean. The lake of fire is "the second death"....a death from which nothing and no one returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9....
" since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

What is the punishment?....."eternal destruction".....doesn't this agree with Jesus' statement at Matthew 10:28?
" And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [Gehenna]"

Gehenna is the "lake of fire".....a place where souls are "destroyed", not tormented. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.

Luke 16:19-31 is Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus.....

It is a parable not a true story.
The rich man represented the self-righteous Pharisees and the beggar represented the spiritually "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. Their deaths represented a change in status...they exchanged places, the beggar now occupying the "bosom of Abraham" or a position of favor with God. Do you think that heaven and hell are in speaking distance to each other? Or that a drop of water on someone's finger could cool the tongue of someone in a blazing fire......really?

Mark 9:45-46....
"And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
This "hell" is also "gehenna". It is a place of eternal death.

Matthew 8:11-12...
"I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ”

Who are the sons of the Kingdom spoken about here? Verse 11 says that many coming from east and west (referring to non-Jews) would recline with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of heaven, whereas the sons of the Kingdom (Jews who should have had that privilege) will be kicked out......weeping and gnashing their teeth because of being rejected. Nothing to do with hell.

This is also clarified in Luke 13:28...
"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves cast out."

 

[calm]

Lets take them one at a time....

Revelation 14:9-11...
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

A brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.

All opposers will be destroyed as if with fire and brimstone. Then it is “the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever and ever” in that God’s judgment of them will serve as a touchstone if ever again Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty is challenged. That issue will have been settled for all eternity.

Revelation 20:10...
" and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I think it is important to understand that death and hades are also thrown into this "lake".

Revelation 20:13-15....
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

If you think that death and hades can be thrown into a literal "lake of fire" then you need to rethink what it could mean. The lake of fire is "the second death"....a death from which nothing and no one returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9....
" since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

What is the punishment?....."eternal destruction".....doesn't this agree with Jesus' statement at Matthew 10:28?
" And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [Gehenna]"

Gehenna is the "lake of fire".....a place where souls are "destroyed", not tormented. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.

Luke 16:19-31 is Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus.....

It is a parable not a true story.
The rich man represented the self-righteous Pharisees and the beggar represented the spiritually "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. Their deaths represented a change in status...they exchanged places, the beggar now occupying the "bosom of Abraham" or a position of favor with God. Do you think that heaven and hell are in speaking distance to each other? Or that a drop of water on someone's finger could cool the tongue of someone in a blazing fire......really?

Mark 9:45-46....
"And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
This "hell" is also "gehenna". It is a place of eternal death.

Matthew 8:11-12...
"I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ”

Who are the sons of the Kingdom spoken about here? Verse 11 says that many coming from east and west (referring to non-Jews) would recline with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of heaven, whereas the sons of the Kingdom (Jews who should have had that privilege) will be kicked out......weeping and gnashing their teeth because of being rejected. Nothing to do with hell.

This is also clarified in Luke 13:28...
"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves cast out."

so it took you a day to copy from the JW site? Seriously?

 

[calm]

@Deeje
It's funny how you always copy from the JW site and change a few words to make people think it's your own work.

Revelation 14:9-11...
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

A brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.

All opposers will be destroyed as if with fire and brimstone. Then it is “the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever and ever” in that God’s judgment of them will serve as a touchstone if ever again Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty is challenged. That issue will have been settled for all eternity.

You say it, it may be a similar prophecy but it's not the same.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9....
" since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

What is the punishment?....."eternal destruction".....doesn't this agree with Jesus' statement at Matthew 10:28?
" And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [Gehenna]"

Gehenna is the "lake of fire".....a place where souls are "destroyed", not tormented. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.

Eternal destruction is eternal hell. Eternal destruction is described as a place where one will suffer eternally. Eternal destruction does not have to mean eternal nothing as you interpret it.

Luke 16:19-31 is Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus.....

It is a parable not a true story.
The rich man represented the self-righteous Pharisees and the beggar represented the spiritually "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. Their deaths represented a change in status...they exchanged places, the beggar now occupying the "bosom of Abraham" or a position of favor with God. Do you think that heaven and hell are in speaking distance to each other? Or that a drop of water on someone's finger could cool the tongue of someone in a blazing fire......really?

Nowhere is it written that it is a parable.
And yes, I believe that hell and paradise are side by side and that they are separated by a great gulf as written in the verse(Luke 16:26).

Mark 9:45-46....
"And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
This "hell" is also "gehenna". It is a place of eternal death.

Why are you skipping verse 46?
I know why. It completely contradicts your view. For Jesus says that hell will be a place where the worm (soul) will not die and the fire will not go out.

Revelation 20:10...
" and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I think it is important to understand that death and hades are also thrown into this "lake".

Revelation 20:13-15....
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

If you think that death and hades can be thrown into a literal "lake of fire" then you need to rethink what it could mean. The lake of fire is "the second death"....a death from which nothing and no one returns.

Yes, from hell no one can return. I never said that either. But hell will be a place where the soul will not die (Mark 9:46) and where one will suffer forever (Revelation 14:9-11).

 

[Deeje]

OK....well that was worth waiting for.....

so it took you a day to copy from the JW site? Seriously?

I do have a life.

I told you I would respond to this today. Is there a problem?
I'm a JW. I take most of my information from those I trust as my teachers.....don't you do the same? Are you not prone to quote those whom you trust as teachers?

All of the scriptures are from the ESV and the majority of what I wrote was my own.....not copied from anything but the Bible.

 

[calm]

OK....well that was worth waiting for.....



I do have a life.

I told you I would respond to this today. Is there a problem?
I'm a JW. I take most of my information from those I trust as my teachers.....don't you do the same? Are you not prone to quote those whom you trust as teachers?

All of the scriptures are from the ESV and the majority of what I wrote was my own.....not copied from anything but the Bible.

There is no problem.I just find it interesting how it took you a day to copy from this page.And of course you have a life too, but have you forgotten your #442 post? Your claim that all the scriptures are from the ESV is wrong. Click on Isaiah 34:9, 10 of your #447 post.

"I'm a JW. I take most of my information from those I trust as my teachers.....don't you do the same? Are you not prone to quote those whom you trust as teachers?"
I do not trust anyone blindly when it involves the Holy Scripture, but I check whether it is the truth.
This is a problem with Jehovah's Witnesses, you only think and do what the Watchtower requires of you. You're an example. You constantly copy from the JW page without thinking: Is that even right?. And that is dangerous.

 

[sooda]

Lets take them one at a time....

Revelation 14:9-11...
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

A brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: “Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur; and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her.”—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but “emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing.” (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke ‘ascending to time indefinite’ vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God’s people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way ‘the smoke of her burning’ is still ascending in a symbolic way.

All opposers will be destroyed as if with fire and brimstone. Then it is “the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever and ever” in that God’s judgment of them will serve as a touchstone if ever again Jehovah’s rightful sovereignty is challenged. That issue will have been settled for all eternity.

Revelation 20:10...
" and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I think it is important to understand that death and hades are also thrown into this "lake".

Revelation 20:13-15....
"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

If you think that death and hades can be thrown into a literal "lake of fire" then you need to rethink what it could mean. The lake of fire is "the second death"....a death from which nothing and no one returns.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9....
" since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

What is the punishment?....."eternal destruction".....doesn't this agree with Jesus' statement at Matthew 10:28?
" And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [Gehenna]"

Gehenna is the "lake of fire".....a place where souls are "destroyed", not tormented. Fire is a symbol of complete destruction.

Luke 16:19-31 is Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus.....

It is a parable not a true story.
The rich man represented the self-righteous Pharisees and the beggar represented the spiritually "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. Their deaths represented a change in status...they exchanged places, the beggar now occupying the "bosom of Abraham" or a position of favor with God. Do you think that heaven and hell are in speaking distance to each other? Or that a drop of water on someone's finger could cool the tongue of someone in a blazing fire......really?

Mark 9:45-46....
"And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
This "hell" is also "gehenna". It is a place of eternal death.

Matthew 8:11-12...
"I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ”

Who are the sons of the Kingdom spoken about here? Verse 11 says that many coming from east and west (referring to non-Jews) would recline with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of heaven, whereas the sons of the Kingdom (Jews who should have had that privilege) will be kicked out......weeping and gnashing their teeth because of being rejected. Nothing to do with hell.

This is also clarified in Luke 13:28...
"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves cast out."

The Edomites were forcibly converted to Judaism.

 

[Deeje]

There is no problem.I just find it interesting how it took you a day to copy from this page.And of course you have a life too, but have you forgotten your #442 post? Your claim that all the scriptures are from the ESV is wrong. Click on Isaiah 34:9, 10 of your #447 post.

"I'm a JW. I take most of my information from those I trust as my teachers.....don't you do the same? Are you not prone to quote those whom you trust as teachers?"
I do not trust anyone blindly when it involves the Holy Scripture, but I check whether it is the truth.
This is a problem with Jehovah's Witnesses, you only think and do what the Watchtower requires of you. You're an example. You constantly copy from the JW page without thinking: Is that even right?. And that is dangerous.

As I was born and raised in Christendom, I was very careful to check everything with the Bible. I research everything with Biblegateway comparing translations, as well as using Strongs Concordance on the meaning of words used in those translations. I consult the Tanach when discussing Hebrew scripture. I have never found fault yet with the way my brotherhood interprets scripture. When I refer to their work it is because I respect it and acknowledge their constant research.

I have not actually seen you refute a single thing.

I do not constantly copy from anything without thinking. I find your attitude a little strange as you seem more interested in your own interpretation of what scripture is, than actually getting to the truth about anything. Your truth is just your opinion and you are welcome to it. I have an opinion too and that is what I share. You don't have to like it or agree with it.

 

[sooda]

As I was born and raised in Christendom, I was very careful to check everything with the Bible. I research everything with Biblegateway comparing translations, as well as using Strongs Concordance on the meaning of words used in those translations. I consult the Tanach when discussing Hebrew scripture. I have never found fault yet with the way my brotherhood interprets scripture. When I refer to their work it is because I respect it and acknowledge their constant research.

I have not actually seen you refute a single thing.

I do not constantly copy from anything without thinking. I find your attitude a little strange as you seem more interested in your own interpretation of what scripture is, than actually getting to the truth about anything. Your truth is just your opinion and you are welcome to it. I have an opinion too and that is what I share. You don't have to like it or agree with it.

Christendom is worldwide traditional Christianity.

 

[Katzpur]

If they are different...I have no problem in learning new things. That's how I look at it...an opportunity to learn something, to expand my knowledge. Just 7 months ago, two Mormons were coming to my home every week. We had some great discussions, we all learned from each other.

It's all in how you look at it.

I wish it weren't the case, but you are seriously the only Jehovah's Witness I've ever talked to who has this perspective. I, too, am always looking to expand my knowledge and want to take every opportunity to learn new things. Thank you for being the way you are.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I solved the problem by moving into the back house of a place. Now no one ever knocks on my door. LOL