When HEAVEN doesn't mean "space" or "universe"

[gnostic]

This is the topic about another thread, What evidence is there that the Koran is the word of God? ...more specifically 1 post - Post 32, by keroghee.

In this post, keroghee tried to provide evidences, which is not evidences at all. He or she was merely reinterpreting various Qur'anic verses and tried to put in the context of modern science.

I have seen such verses here before. Some Muslim RF members have in the past, posted topics of linking some of these verses from the Qur'an to science, in order to impress people, to bolster Islam, and in doing so, to mislead people, who have no understanding of science.

The problem is also in their interpretation of the texts.

The problem come with the word "heaven", because it can have different definitions.

1. In the religious context (more specifically Abrahamic positions), heaven mean the abode of God. And in Islam and Christianity, With regards to
2. The 2nd definition for heaven, mean the sky, the atmosphere, etc. With no telescopes at that time, ancient and medieval people thought that all the planets, Moon and stars, including our own Sun, move within the Earth's atmosphere, like the clouds. Other terms for the sky were firmament, dome, vault of heaven, etc.
3. The 3rd definition to heaven, is space, beyond our atmospheres and gravity.

To me, Allah, the supposed author of the Qur'an, have no more understanding in science than Muhammad and his followers before the Qur'an was finally written. (I don't think Allah wrote anything at all, let alone, the Qur'an, but this is not topic about Allah.)

Quoting a single verse or two, and trying to put modern contexts, particularly scientific contexts, in those verses, are misleading propaganda, and actually tarnish Islam's image. They are not presenting scientific facts, but misinformation.

I will refute keroglee's interpretations and explanations for each of the verse that relate to the word "heaven", or the sun, stars or any astronomical contexts.

Qur’an also says “And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term ( appointed ) . That is the Decree of the All- Mighty, the All- Knowing” [36:38] how can an illiterate in the 7th century in the desert knows that the sun rotates in a fixed orbit? Perhaps this piece of information was known in one of the former great empires the roman or the Persians?

Everyone in ancient and prehistorical times, already knew that time of day and year, follow a pattern, that people can calculate the equinoxes, solstices, the seasons for planting, harvesting, nights and days. Everyone knew that the Sun rises in the east and set in the west.

The Qur'an provide us no insight whatsoever to the course, it speaks of.

The Babylonians, Egyptians and Mayans already have their own calendars, millennia or centuries before Muhammad. 600 years before Muhammad, Julius Caesar had commission a Jewish astronomer to develop a solar calendar (Julian calendar), which was fairly accurate, except it shouldn't add leap year with every new century (corrected by the Gregorian calendar, which have leap year on a new century, every 400 years).

But what doesn't the verse say?

It say "...the sun runs on its fixed course for a term". The verse provide no other explanation as to what course. It doesn't explain day and night, and it certainly doesn't explain the Earth's rotation on its axis.

And keroghee's explanation is inaccurate and false. He wrote:

how can an illiterate in the 7th century in the desert knows that the sun rotates in a fixed orbit?

It is the earth that rotate on its axis, that give us night and day, not the Sun's rotation. And it is Earth orbiting the Sun, not the Sun orbiting the Earth.

On the earth's surface the sun seemed to traverse the sky, from east to west.

 

[gnostic]

Here is keroghee's 2nd interpretation to another verse:

In Qur’an you find “Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe” [21:30] does this remind you of something? Oh yes! Big bang. But how does anybody could have known about big bang before the last 60 years?

Sorry, you got excite over for no reason whatsoever.

This verse doesn't explain the Big Bang. I don't think you even know what the Big Bang theory is, because if you have, you wouldn't have jump the gun.

It has nothing to do with Big Bang. It had nothing to do with the universe or galaxy. Just the Earth and its sky.

What is say in the Qur'an is nothing new. Even the Bible say as much.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning —the second day.

There is nothing scientific with the verses in Genesis, nor with the verse in Qur'an (21:30).

In Egyptian religious texts (myth), the god Shu (air, light) separate his children, Nut (sky, heaven) from her brother Geb (Earth).

(image from Wikipedia, Geb, Nut, Shu)
​

In Sumerian poem, Gilgames and the Netherworld, the heaven (sky) was separated from the Earth is also alluded:

1-26. In those days, in those distant days, in those nights, in those remote nights, in those years, in those distant years; in days of yore, when the necessary things had been brought into manifest existence, in days of yore, when the necessary things had been for the first time properly cared for....when the heavens had been separated from the earth, when the earth had been delimited from the heavens...

(The above translation is from ETCSLtranslation : t.1.8.1.4. ETCSL stands for The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature.)

There are other myths that have separating the sky from earth, all of which are older than the Islamic version. The Islamic creation myth is just that a myth, based on old Judaeo-Christian creation myths.

If anyone wants to learn what the Big Bang Theory is all about, they should at the very least read the wikipedia Big Bang, or better yet, the NASA's WMAP Universe, which has a number of links about the Big Bang cosmology.

 

[gnostic]

And here is the 3rd and last explanation from keroghee:

You find also “Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke” [41:11] you know science has proved that the space is full of some kind of dust called cosmic dust they say it fills all in between stars and planets they say it consists of dust particles like you find it in homes but when they tried to take samples of this dust particles they said that it doesn’t look like dust at all, in fact, it looks more like SMOKE and more researches proved that the dust that spread around a supernova (a blowing up star) is actually smoke and that the universe was smoke in its initial stages.

Again, the verse has nothing to do space. It doesn't mention star or dust.

The most likely context to this verse is the CLOUD.

If you were to go high enough on the mountain and the clouds are low enough, you would see that cloud seemed like smoke. Cloud have similar effect as smoke.

Here is the full verse, which keroghee failed to supply:

11. Moreover He comprehended
In His design the sky,
And it had been (as) smoke:
He said to it
And to the earth:
"Come ye together,
Willingly or unwillingly."
They said: "We do come
(Together), in willing obedience."

Sky, not space. And the sky has clouds. HECK, you can burn something and you will smoke linger in the sky.

Keroghee chose to take each of these 3 verses, and take them out of context, by twisting the words for his own agenda. It is dishonesty that I have seen in many of the so-called "scientific miracles of the Qur'an". What I see is not scientific fact or scientific miracle, but circular reasoning by some Muslims here and elsewhere.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Can i help, im not a scientist but im not dumb either.

That which is heaven for Pickthall, is sky for Yusuf Ali, is Galaxy(!!!!!) for ?????.

As for this,

“Moreover, He Comprehended In His design the sky, And it had been (as) smoke: He said to it And to the earth: ‘Come ye together, Willingly or unwillingly.’ They said: ‘We do come (Together), in willing obedience.’” [Al-Qur'aan 41:11]

The verse starts with “Moreover” ..Implying that before the creation of the galaxies, Allah did something else.
We can find what precedes the creation of ‘galaxies’ by reading the preceding verse, of which, 41:11 is an obvious successor – “Quran Verse 41:10
He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).”
So what do we have from this verse: The Earth is formed before the formation of galaxies! As if earth is not part of a galaxy!!

Now look the verse 41:11 by itself.. It says the ‘Galaxy’ was a smoke, as if the earth was not! Very Very unscientific!

Read further into the verse “he said to it and the earth: ‘come ye together“.. IS THIS HOW THE GALAXY WAS FORMED? BY coming together of Earth and the rest of the Galaxy? What kind of a joke is this!!! Earth is, was a part of this galaxy… earth was formed with the same “SMOKE” of which the galaxy was formed.

Science has a lot to catch up to :sarcastic

 

[Gharib]

OMG.

Gnostic, I read your first post only and didn't see what your argument is?

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? Is it to determine what 'heaven' means?


Satyamavejayanti, I read your post too, you are definitely not dumb, so long as you say so, but ignorant, well your post speaks for itself.

Whether it's willful ignorance or not, you need to say so.

 

[FearGod]

This is the topic about another thread, What evidence is there that the Koran is the word of God? ...more specifically 1 post - Post 32, by keroghee.

In this post, keroghee tried to provide evidences, which is not evidences at all. He or she was merely reinterpreting various Qur'anic verses and tried to put in the context of modern science.

I have seen such verses here before. Some Muslim RF members have in the past, posted topics of linking some of these verses from the Qur'an to science, in order to impress people, to bolster Islam, and in doing so, to mislead people, who have no understanding of science.

The problem is also in their interpretation of the texts.

The problem come with the word "heaven", because it can have different definitions.

1. In the religious context (more specifically Abrahamic positions), heaven mean the abode of God. And in Islam and Christianity, With regards to
2. The 2nd definition for heaven, mean the sky, the atmosphere, etc. With no telescopes at that time, ancient and medieval people thought that all the planets, Moon and stars, including our own Sun, move within the Earth's atmosphere, like the clouds. Other terms for the sky were firmament, dome, vault of heaven, etc.
3. The 3rd definition to heaven, is space, beyond our atmospheres and gravity.

To me, Allah, the supposed author of the Qur'an, have no more understanding in science than Muhammad and his followers before the Qur'an was finally written. (I don't think Allah wrote anything at all, let alone, the Qur'an, but this is not topic about Allah.)


Quoting a single verse or two, and trying to put modern contexts, particularly scientific contexts, in those verses, are misleading propaganda, and actually tarnish Islam's image. They are not presenting scientific facts, but misinformation.

I will refute keroglee's interpretations and explanations for each of the verse that relate to the word "heaven", or the sun, stars or any astronomical contexts.



Everyone in ancient and prehistorical times, already knew that time of day and year, follow a pattern, that people can calculate the equinoxes, solstices, the seasons for planting, harvesting, nights and days. Everyone knew that the Sun rises in the east and set in the west.

The Qur'an provide us no insight whatsoever to the course, it speaks of.

The Babylonians, Egyptians and Mayans already have their own calendars, millennia or centuries before Muhammad. 600 years before Muhammad, Julius Caesar had commission a Jewish astronomer to develop a solar calendar (Julian calendar), which was fairly accurate, except it shouldn't add leap year with every new century (corrected by the Gregorian calendar, which have leap year on a new century, every 400 years).

But what doesn't the verse say?

It say "...the sun runs on its fixed course for a term". The verse provide no other explanation as to what course. It doesn't explain day and night, and it certainly doesn't explain the Earth's rotation on its axis.

And keroghee's explanation is inaccurate and false. He wrote:



It is the earth that rotate on its axis, that give us night and day, not the Sun's rotation. And it is Earth orbiting the Sun, not the Sun orbiting the Earth.

On the earth's surface the sun seemed to traverse the sky, from east to west.

Waw,what a great work you did here.

You should send your discovery for the international news,
Top of the news
Verses in the quran finaly approved to be wrong by one of the researchers in the RF.
The world is watching how many muslims will convert to atheism.


My friend you are in the circular reasoning which "England my lionheart" had already posted,but no one is listening to him

Welcome to the world of circular reasoning and good luck.

Yes,what you did is perfect.

Only stupids who are always insist to ask for an evidence from the quran that it is true from god,because they will go around such circle like idiots.

Be wise enough not to put yourself in such circle.

again and again and again,that is depend on faith,if you told me that your father's name is so and so,
should i ask for an evidence that your father did it and you are his real son.

So that is the faith,you trust that your father did it,eventhough you did see nothing.

if you have faith,then you will not fetch for an evidence
but if you dont have faith,you will still be in doubt,eventhough you have an evidence

Thank you England my lionheart for that wise circle drawing which make it clear that such discussions are always pointless

 

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

It say "...the sun runs on its fixed course for a term". The verse provide no other explanation as to what course. It doesn't explain day and night, and it certainly doesn't explain the Earth's rotation on its axis.

And keroghee's explanation is inaccurate and false. He wrote:



It is the earth that rotate on its axis, that give us night and day, not the Sun's rotation. And it is Earth orbiting the Sun, not the Sun orbiting the Earth.

On the earth's surface the sun seemed to traverse the sky, from east to west.

Hello, no disrespect but I do not see where keroghee said that it is not the earth rotating on its axis that gives us night and day. Maybe he said it in the other thread but I didn't read it fully so I dunno.

All I know is that the sun is traveling towards the solar apex.

 

[Breathe]

Will someone who understands Arabic please post the verses in Arabic, and the word used in these verses? For example, if it says "jannah" or something else.

 

[FearGod]

Can i help, im not a scientist but im not dumb either.

That which is heaven for Pickthall, is sky for Yusuf Ali, is Galaxy(!!!!!) for ?????.

As for this,



The verse starts with “Moreover” ..Implying that before the creation of the galaxies, Allah did something else.
We can find what precedes the creation of ‘galaxies’ by reading the preceding verse, of which, 41:11 is an obvious successor – “Quran Verse 41:10
He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).”
So what do we have from this verse: The Earth is formed before the formation of galaxies! As if earth is not part of a galaxy!!

Now look the verse 41:11 by itself.. It says the ‘Galaxy’ was a smoke, as if the earth was not! Very Very unscientific!

Read further into the verse “he said to it and the earth: ‘come ye together“.. IS THIS HOW THE GALAXY WAS FORMED? BY coming together of Earth and the rest of the Galaxy? What kind of a joke is this!!! Earth is, was a part of this galaxy… earth was formed with the same “SMOKE” of which the galaxy was formed.

Science has a lot to catch up to :sarcastic

i am not posting to convince you that the quran is right or wrong,because you dont have faith on the quran,but only to clear one point.

The Arabic word for “smoke” in the above verse is “dukhanun,” which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur’an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur’an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke.

Read more: Scientific Miracles of Quran about universe creation smoke | NXTnews

So the question is all about faith,for me i will receive such information that god really
was in knowledge that the universe was hot and smoke,but for you or the others who
dont have faith in the quran,they will receive the information as a lucky , coincedence,
fore effect or trying to find whatever mistake they could to refute the quran,so that is depend on faith.

for example,god promised the satan to be punished in the hell,and the satan promised to deceive humans,then do you expect that the satan may worship
god eventhough that he know that he exist,so that depend on faith and depend what path you have chosed,we are not talking about science.

The satan already know what is his end and he is making his revenge to drive people away from the right path,and we have our will to choose the path of god or the satan,of course
that is according to islamic teaching,but for you,you may think that your path is the right
one and there is nothing called satan,which you may think it is nonsense.

So once again,all that depend on faith

 

[gnostic]

You should send your discovery for the international news,
Top of the news
Verses in the quran finaly approved to be wrong by one of the researchers in the RF.
The world is watching how many muslims will convert to atheism.

Very funny.

It is not about atheism or converting to atheism. I am not trying to stop people (Muslims) believing in Islam. My problem is matter of interpretations of those texts, by keroghee.

In fact, it is not painting Islam or the Qur'an in negative image. It is about misinformation that come from keroghee's interpretations, and those who agree with him or did similar topics about Islam and science.

I have the highest respect of Muslim scientists in its golden age, from 8th century to 14th centuries. Those were real discoveries and achievements in astronomy, medicine, technology; they were far more advanced than the western Europeans (before the High Renaissance in Italy).

When I read the verses in the Qur'an, what I don't agree with how keroghee interpret those verses. That's what this thread about.

I have no respect for Muslims today, trying to claim credits for modern science, simply by quoting vague verses in their Qur'an. This is what I call backseat pseudoscience.

I have no respect for people trying to misrepresent science for their own religious agenda.

And I have no respect for modern Muslims who tried to turn a book of theology into science book. The Qur'an is not science book. The problem with Muslims is that they are no longer leaders in science, so they try to twist the evidences in science and the theory/explanations to suit the the Qur'an or justify their belief, and not allow evidences to dictate if what they believe to be true.

There are no scientific facts to be found in the Qur'an (or any other scriptures for that matter). Science were done by the great Muslim individuals of the past, who actually did the hard works.

 

[gnostic]

i am not posting to convince you that the quran is right or wrong,because you dont have faith on the quran,but only to clear one point.

So once again,all that depend on faith

Science depends on evidences, not faith.

 

[Gharib]

@ Muslims.

Can we please not just throw statements around. If you don't want to discuss this or any other topic on other threads, don't bother posting just 'anything'. Show a little respect, Gnostic isn't just any member with a hidden agenda. I respect his questions and he too is respectful towards Muslims and our faith even though he doesn't agree with us.

We are going to be held accountable for anything rude we say to those who are respectful to us. Be nice. Not just to Gnostic but all members. Even if you have to reply to an offensive post do it gently, our Prophet did so, so do what he did.

 

[FearGod]

Science depends on evidences, not faith.

Sure,religion depends on faith and not science
Some have a faith that there was something out of nothing which cause
the quantum fluctuations,then here we are,billions of planets
and all creation started from one cell,then here we are,billions of the creations.


So some believe on the science of quantum fluctuations and the first cell,whereas
the others believe on one creator.

So we are talking about the belief,which is the faith.
you believe that you are in the right path,but the others believe that they are
in the right path,who is right and who is missed,let us wait and see after death
what we will find or what will happen.

if we died and there was no life after death,then atheists will be happy after their
death because they will know that they did all kind of happiness in their life,but
they cant celebrate winning because they are none after death.

if we died and there was a life after death,then that isnt logic,because why we
have to die,if we will still be alive,exept if there is a purpose to be alive again.

So we may be alive only if there will be a real creator and a judgement day.

According to islamic belief,everyone will have his book with all records he did
during his life,whats his name,whats his religion..etc.

So it is like this,some people dont believe that there is after life and that they came
to life by nature which means there is no need for god.

For what purpose they are here,no purpose,just to enjoy,eat..etc and then die.

Others believe that the purpose of their life is for the test,which means that
they will be asked for their deeds during their short life on earth.

Can we guess anything,we cant,so why we have to worry,if it is true,then we can see it after our death

 

[gnostic]

The verse starts with “Moreover” ..Implying that before the creation of the galaxies, Allah did something else.
We can find what precedes the creation of ‘galaxies’ by reading the preceding verse, of which, 41:11 is an obvious successor – “Quran Verse 41:10
He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).”
So what do we have from this verse: The Earth is formed before the formation of galaxies! As if earth is not part of a galaxy!!

Now look the verse 41:11 by itself.. It says the ‘Galaxy’ was a smoke, as if the earth was not! Very Very unscientific!

Read further into the verse “he said to it and the earth: ‘come ye together“.. IS THIS HOW THE GALAXY WAS FORMED? BY coming together of Earth and the rest of the Galaxy? What kind of a joke is this!!! Earth is, was a part of this galaxy… earth was formed with the same “SMOKE” of which the galaxy was formed.

You don't understand, satyamavejayanti.

Smoke is a byproduct gas due to the result of burning of fuel, from either combustion or pyrolysis (without oxygen). Usually, smoke has carbon.

If you are talking about the Big Bang, then there would be no carbon in the young universe. The universe prior to the expansion (Big Bang) was the singularity. The singularity was extremely super-hot and super-dense (most likely plasma) that no atoms could form, so there was no hydrogen, or heavier gases like oxygen and carbon. Plasma is neither solid, liquid nor gas; I would suggest that you look up plasma in wiki.

When the expansion (Big Bang) first occur there was still no atoms of any sort, anywhere. But the result of rapid expansion was rapid cooling. Cool enough for energy to form into subatomic particles (neutrons, and charged protons & electrons, as well other sub-particles), which became building blocks for all matters (atoms). And the first atoms formed were hydrogen.

It is true what trruth wrote that smoke is "a warm body of gas", but as I wrote earlier, smoke is a byproduct gas, made from combustion or pyrolysis.

What was created by the expansion was gas (hydrogen), but not smoke. Astronomical amount of hydrogen gas was created from a cooling (and expanding) universe.

The first stars were formed from extremely dense bodies of hydrogen gases, that it became massive. All it required was large discharge of electrons to cause the sun to illuminate and create heat.

The first stars weren't born until half-a-billion years after the expansion (Big Bang) began.

That my friend, is a summary of the Big Bang and how the first stars were formed, in my own words.

What trruth said about smoke being "a warm body of gas" is true, but he is wrong about the universe being made out of smoke. The bodies of hydrogen gases were created from rapid cooling, not because of rising temperature.

The Arabic word for “smoke” in the above verse is “dukhanun,” which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur’an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur’an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke.

The problem with Muslims' view like trruth, is that they assume that all gases are smoke, they are not. When they think of smoke, they are thinking fire. There were no fire in the earlier universe, because there are absolutely no combustion. The reason why there are no combustion is because there are no oxygen in the early universe. And one form of smoke come from mixture of oxygen and carbon (eg carbon monoxides), and there were no carbon too. And there are no smoke from pyrolysis, because it also required carbon, mixed with hydrogen.

Carbon and oxygen, (iron and other elements from the periodic table) weren't created until those first stars died from supernovaes. The Earth itself and our solar system wasn't created from the Big Bang itself, by the supernova of one of the earlier stars, if not from the first stars.

(And BTW, trruth, there were also no dust particles in the early universe until the supernova of the first stars.)

So the correct terms that trruth should have used is "cosmic gas of hydrogen", not "cosmic smoke". Trruth and keroghee clearly don't understand the properties of smoke are different from all other gas elements. And clearly they both don't understand the Big Bang cosmology.

If they knew the difference between smoke and cosmic gas, they wouldn't be so quick to say the heaven was made out of smoke. No where in the theory of the Big Bang do they ever mention smoke. None of the scientists, even the Catholic physicist (Georges Lemaître, 1927), who started the whole Big Bang theory (though it wasn't called "Big Bang" at that time), ever mention smoke. Mention smoke to the science community or any astronomy lecture, and they would be laughed off the stage.

 

[FearGod]

You don't understand, satyamavejayanti.

Smoke is a byproduct gas due to the result of burning of fuel, from either combustion or pyrolysis (without oxygen). Usually, smoke has carbon.

If you are talking about the Big Bang, then there would be no carbon in the young universe. The universe prior to the expansion (Big Bang) was the singularity. The singularity was extremely super-hot and super-dense (most likely plasma) that no atoms could form, so there was no hydrogen, or heavier gases like oxygen and carbon. Plasma is neither solid, liquid nor gas; I would suggest that you look up plasma in wiki.

When the expansion (Big Bang) first occur there was still no atoms of any sort, anywhere. But the result of rapid expansion was rapid cooling. Cool enough for energy to form into subatomic particles (neutrons, and charged protons & electrons, as well other sub-particles), which became building blocks for all matters (atoms). And the first atoms formed were hydrogen.

It is true what trruth wrote that smoke is "a warm body of gas", but as I wrote earlier, smoke is a byproduct gas, made from combustion or pyrolysis.

What was created by the expansion was gas (hydrogen), but not smoke. Astronomical amount of hydrogen gas was created from a cooling (and expanding) universe.

The first stars were formed from extremely dense bodies of hydrogen gases, that it became massive. All it required was large discharge of electrons to cause the sun to illuminate and create heat.

The first stars weren't born until half-a-billion years after the expansion (Big Bang) began.

That my friend, is a summary of the Big Bang and how the first stars were formed, in my own words.

What trruth said about smoke being "a warm body of gas" is true, but he is wrong about the universe being made out of smoke. The bodies of hydrogen gases were created from rapid cooling, not because of rising temperature.



The problem with Muslims' view like trruth, is that they assume that all gases are smoke, they are not. When they think of smoke, they are thinking fire. There were no fire in the earlier universe, because there are absolutely no combustion. The reason why there are no combustion is because there are no oxygen in the early universe. And one form of smoke come from mixture of oxygen and carbon (eg carbon monoxides), and there were no carbon too. And there are no smoke from pyrolysis, because it also required carbon, mixed with hydrogen.

Carbon and oxygen, (iron and other elements from the periodic table) weren't created until those first stars died from supernovaes. The Earth itself and our solar system wasn't created from the Big Bang itself, by the supernova of one of the earlier stars, if not from the first stars.

(And BTW, trruth, there were also no dust particles in the early universe until the supernova of the first stars.)

So the correct terms that trruth should have used is "cosmic gas of hydrogen", not "cosmic smoke". Trruth and keroghee clearly don't understand the properties of smoke are different from all other gas elements. And clearly they both don't understand the Big Bang cosmology.

If they knew the difference between smoke and cosmic gas, they wouldn't be so quick to say the heaven was made out of smoke. No where in the theory of the Big Bang do they ever mention smoke. None of the scientists, even the Catholic physicist (Georges Lemaître, 1927), who started the whole Big Bang theory (though it wasn't called "Big Bang" at that time), ever mention smoke. Mention smoke to the science community or any astronomy lecture, and they would be laughed off the stage.

What a great thinker.

Every thing is alright,but it should be gas and not smoke.

do you want the quran to mention the word gas which was only found to the world as
new word in the 17th century.

Can you find the word "gas" in the bible ?

Gas is the same as smoke

Reference : Here

 

[keroghee]

The solution to this is easy, if only gnostic did a little more research about the origin of the word and its translation. The word that is written in Qur’an in Arabic is el-samawat (السماوا&#1578 if you put it in Google translate it will translate to you as skies but why in the Qur’an translation it’s written Heavens?? Because simply Heavens means also skies. Heavens with its other meaning (Paradise) is called in Arabic Jannah (الجن&#1577 . So when in Arabic, el-samawat is mentioned it means only skies or the similar meaning in the word heavens and the word Jannah is mentioned it only means paradise or heavens with its similar meaning. El-samawat also in Arabic doesn't mean the surrounding atmosphere only, but it extends to the outer space. In fact, sky in Arabic is basically from the outer atmosphere to the edges of outer space.

Qur’an also says “And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term ( appointed ) . That is the Decree of the All- Mighty, the All- Knowing” [36:38] how can an illiterate in the 7th century in the desert knows that the sun rotates in a fixed orbit?

This one is my mistake, I was typing fast. What I meant is that sun moves in a fixed path. But regardless of my explanation, the verse is clear and declaring that the sun is moving in space in a fixed course. Actually the sun with the entire solar system moves throughout the space and orbits the galactic center with a speed of 220 km\s in a period of 230 million years which is known as the cosmic year. And it doesn’t describe the day and night at all. other verses however, Do describe it.

Sorry, you got excite over for no reason whatsoever.

This verse doesn't explain the Big Bang. I don't think you even know what the Big Bang theory is, because if you have, you wouldn't have jump the gun.

It has nothing to do with Big Bang. It had nothing to do with the universe or galaxy. Just the Earth and its sky.

What is say in the Qur'an is nothing new. Even the Bible say as much.

I don’t understand how “a joined entity that was separated to be the universe” doesn’t have to do anything with big bang. Didn’t big bang was a “thing” that expanded rapidly and then cooled to form the universe??
I’ve read your Wikipedia link, it explains the process and don’t understand your objection!

Again, the verse has nothing to do space. It doesn't mention star or dust.

The most likely context to this verse is the CLOUD.

If you were to go high enough on the mountain and the clouds are low enough, you would see that cloud seemed like smoke. Cloud has similar effect as smoke.

I’m telling you, the main problem is that you commonly misunderstand the word (el-samawat). Rethink of this after you know the true meaning of the word and you would see it makes sense. And for this smoke thing, UK astronomers has held the experiment about this “cosmic dust” and they say it looks like “smoke” particles and this suggests that universe is more likely was full of such dust at the universe initial state . Link for the experiment:
outreach.jach.hawaii.edu/pressroom/2003_casa/

Your whole refute was based on a wrong assumption in the first place. So after you have known the true meaning of the word and read the link, please repeat it!!
Do some more research when refuting a translated text.
Sorry, you're the one who got excited.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

i am not posting to convince you that the quran is right or wrong,because you dont have faith on the quran,but only to clear one point.

The Arabic word for “smoke” in the above verse is “dukhanun,” which describes the hot, cosmic smoke in question. This word in the Qur’an, in pinpoint fashion, describes this smoke very accurately for it is a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid substances. Here, the Qur’an has employed the most appropriate word from the Arabic language for describing the appearance of this phase of the universe. Let us note that only in the 20th century have scientists discovered that the universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke.

Read more: Scientific Miracles of Quran about universe creation smoke | NXTnews

So the question is all about faith,for me i will receive such information that god really
was in knowledge that the universe was hot and smoke,but for you or the others who
dont have faith in the quran,they will receive the information as a lucky , coincedence,
fore effect or trying to find whatever mistake they could to refute the quran,so that is depend on faith.

for example,god promised the satan to be punished in the hell,and the satan promised to deceive humans,then do you expect that the satan may worship
god eventhough that he know that he exist,so that depend on faith and depend what path you have chosed,we are not talking about science.

The satan already know what is his end and he is making his revenge to drive people away from the right path,and we have our will to choose the path of god or the satan,of course
that is according to islamic teaching,but for you,you may think that your path is the right
one and there is nothing called satan,which you may think it is nonsense.

So once again,all that depend on faith

Its not about what smoke means, what i stated is that the Koran Quran 41:11 & Quran Verse 41:10 states that the earth was created before the universe, it speaks as if the universe is separate from the earth.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

gnostic;2906345]You don't understand, satyamavejayanti.

Smoke is a byproduct gas due to the result of burning of fuel, from either combustion or pyrolysis (without oxygen). Usually, smoke has carbon.

I was being sarcastic, i never questioned the smoke. but the entire verse Quran Verse 41:10 & Al-Quran 41:11 i think states that the earth was created before the Universe.

Here is the two verses.

He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).”Quran Verse 41:10
“Moreover, He Comprehended In His design the sky, And it had been (as) smoke: He said to it And to the earth: ‘Come ye together, Willingly or unwillingly.’ They said: ‘We do come (Together), in willing obedience.’” [Al-Qur'aan 41:11]

As i said im no scientist, but read these together and tell me if it sounds scientific explanation of the Big Bang, i dont see it.

 

[gnostic]

What a great thinker.

Every thing is alright,but it should be gas and not smoke.

do you want the quran to mention the word gas which was only found to the world as
new word in the 17th century.

Can you find the word "gas" in the bible ?

Gas is the same as smoke

I am reading the English translations of the Qur'an which were written in the 19th and 20th century. Any one of these translators (Palmer, Rodwell, Yusif Ali, Pickthall, all of whom were Muslims) could have use appropriate and modern terminology like "gas". They didn't. Even a more modern translation like Sahih International didn't use "gas".

Why didn't they use gas?

Because these translators never thought that Muslims of the last 10 years would be so foolish to equate book of theology with science.

Smoke are byproduct chemical reactions, like waste gas. The earliest cosmic gas (hydrogen) were not waste byproduct gases.

Even if they didn't have such word in Arabic, the word "cloud" would have been more suitable than "smoke".

No modern astronomers today or the last 200 years use "smoke" to describe a body of gasses. Every astronomers used "cloud" to describe body of gasses in space.

 

[PolyHedral]

Its not about what smoke means, what i stated is that the Koran Quran 41:11 & Quran Verse 41:10 states that the earth was created before the universe, it speaks as if the universe is separate from the earth.

It took about 9-10 billion years for that to be true.