When, if ever, is lying morally permissible?

[LuisDantas]

You're preventing harm to yourself/your side, yes?

War is already very tricky ground, morally speaking.

I would say lying is never morally permissible but the world is not moral and lying is a tool that can be used to prevent harm. As long as it is being used to prevent harm it is acceptable.

There is no question that lying can avoid harm in the short term.

It is far more questionable whether it ends up avoing harm generally. Lying breeds mistrust and therefore hostility, after all.

 

[McBell]

Out of curiosity, i wonder what people mean when they use the word "lie"...?

 

[Ouroboros]

When, if ever, is lying morally permissible -- and/or the skillful thing to do? Do you, like Sam Harris, believe lying is always wrong? Or do you take a more flexible view and believe that it is sometimes the right or the best thing to do?

The problem with morals in general is that you could have two conflicting morals. In a situation, there could be a choice between one or another moral that are in that particular situation in contradiction to each other.

If for instance a criminal broke into my house, and my family managed to hide somewhere. The criminal catches me and asks me where they are. Should I lie to protect them from harm, or should I tell the criminal the truth and let him/her hurt or maybe even kill my family?

I think I would not only lie, but even defend my family and hopefully harm the criminal instead.

My view is that morals are only guidelines and not perfect, absolute, non-negotiable commands you must follow. They must be somewhat flexible.

(I answered before I saw other posters pointing out the same thing. Sorry. )

 

[Ouroboros]

Sam Harris isn't quite so dogmatic in this regard, although he does take the extreme view.

I guess he convinced me on that particular, too (I read his short ebook on the matter). Lying is defensible if you are at gunpoint being asked something you don't know, or in some similar situation. But is that then even lying at all?

The problem with lying is that it amounts to giving up on future peace of conscience in exchange for immediate convenience. It ends up causing ever increasing hardships. It is simply not practical. Even lying for people that we do not want to deal with ends up misdirecting them and hurting our perspectives anyway.

Good point.

It sounds like there are different kinds or levels of lying. Some are okay at given times, some are not.

Perhaps it's the intent for the lie rather than the lie itself, just like the difference between murder and manslaughter. Murder is done with the intent of taking someone's life. Manslaughter isn't. (Roughly speaking)

Lying for a personal gain that will hurt the other party unnecessary is more morally repugnant than the lie to save someone from harm.

 

[bobhikes]

There is no question that lying can avoid harm in the short term.

It is far more questionable whether it ends up avoing harm generally. Lying breeds mistrust and therefore hostility, after all.

It only breeds mistrust if found out. If it was truly done to avoid harm the longer it takes to find the truth the less the mistrust and sometimes thanks is given. In my experience.

 

[bobhikes]

Out of curiosity, i wonder what people mean when they use the word "lie"...?

For me a lie is a known untruth. For example my boss is in a bad mood and acting like a jerk. He says in anger Do you think I'm acting like a jerk. I know I am being untrue but I still reply No not at all.

 

[LuisDantas]

It only breeds mistrust if found out.

It will be found out in all but the most extreme and unusual of circunstances. If not by the person being lied to, by those who happen to overhear us or something similar.

We end up hurting our own credibility.

 

[bobhikes]

It will be found out in all but the most extreme and unusual of circunstances. If not by the person being lied to, by those who happen to overhear us or something similar.

We end up hurting our own credibility.

I would disagree on all points.

 

[Ouroboros]

It will be found out in all but the most extreme and unusual of circunstances. If not by the person being lied to, by those who happen to overhear us or something similar.

We end up hurting our own credibility.

Also, if a person lies and it's not discovered, it makes it easier to lie again and again... Unchallenged, the behavior can become systematic. A lie here. A lie there. Unnecessary lies everywhere. Eventually, it would come out.

It reminds me of my kinds when they've lied in the past, and we find out. We explain to them that they've lost our trust. How can we know going forward that they're not just making stuff up? It hurts the relationship. Now they're old enough to have experience and understand themselves how hurtful it is to be lied to.

 

[technomage]

It is far more questionable whether it ends up avoing harm generally. Lying breeds mistrust and therefore hostility, after all.

In a perfect world, there would be no issue. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.

 

[McBell]

For me a lie is a known untruth. For example my boss is in a bad mood and acting like a jerk. He says in anger Do you think I'm acting like a jerk. I know I am being untrue but I still reply No not at all.

I define "lie" as 'intentional deception.'

 

[bobhikes]

I define "lie" as 'intentional deception.'

That's fair

 

[dust1n]

Lying is immoral when it is done at the expense of others or under conditions in which one's principles are compromised.

 

[LuisDantas]

I would disagree on all points.

Tough luck for both of us, I guess. Although it does bring up an idea for a RPG some time. What would it be like to live in such a world as yours?

 

[LuisDantas]

In a perfect world, there would be no issue. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.

My dish washing isn't perfect either, but I have not given up on it.

I think the same logic applies here.

 

[LuisDantas]

Lying is immoral when it is done at the expense of others or under conditions in which one's principles are compromised.

In practice, that amounts to always, doesn't it?

 

[dust1n]

In practice, that amounts to always, doesn't it?

Maybe. I get it depends on where you draw the line between "at the expense of others" and a more so passive lack of knowledge. I suppose all we can hope to do is try to measure the moral expense of either action and choose the one we feel is the least expensive. Or maybe, just refuse to answer a question. Saying "I'd prefer not to answer" isn't lying. You could go confiding lots information that way without lying.

As far as one compromising one's own values, that's just annoying, and people should try not doing that for a while.

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe you can give me some examples? I would be particularly interested where there is not enough coercion for a true choice to exist. As I just said, I wonder if it can be called lying in those cases.
True lying, I feel, can't achieve justice, because it is by nature misleading. Maybe what you describe is more like being forced to repeat some else's line.

I skipped an example cuz I thought everyone would be aware of such a choice.
Example:
I travel in a foreign country, & encounter a violent anti-Americastanian protest.
A gun tote'n crazy eyed thug sees my Hawaiian shirt, & asks "Are you American?".
It would be moral to say "No, I'm Canadian, eh.".

 

[LuisDantas]

I skipped an example cuz I thought everyone would be aware of such a choice.
Example:
I travel in a foreign country, & encounter a violent anti-Americastanian protest.
A gun tote'n crazy eyed thug sees my Hawaiian shirt, & asks "Are you American?".
It would be moral to say "No, I'm Canadian, eh.".

That is not lying. That is acting under coercion.

 

[technomage]

That is not lying. That is acting under coercion.

No, Luis. It still fits all the qualifications of a lie: a deliberate falsehood. Yes, it is a lie told under coercion, but a lie nonetheless.