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When Money Comes Into Religion...
- Thread starter Don Penguinoini
- Start date
Francine
Well-Known Member
Money that is blessed is accounts receivable.
Money that is cursed is accounts payable.
blackout
Violet.
I don't cast judgement on anyone...
and what on earth would I want to dictate?
If everyone needs to kick in a buck or two
to contribute a rental fee for their AA meeting place
its no issue to me. Why did you think it was?
Certainly better to rent than buy. Much cheaper that way.
If people want to pay $25 a week to pay for a mortgage
on their religious meeting place
because that is what they CHOOSE ,
than what the hell do I care?
Just the same it's my choice not to.
As I said before
just don't tell me I HAVE to join
and pay for "said church"
in order to "secure" my salvation.
That's coersion.
and I wonder.
Is there a problem that I have my own opinion
of what Jesus/Y'shua was about?
I know. I'm an uneducated ignoramus.
But It's just my opinion for heaven's sake.
What are you gettin' yourself all rattled about?
gnomon
Well-Known Member
How evasive.
I despise uninformed opinions casting generalized statements against others out of pure ignorance. Especially once it has been pointed out the continual retreat in saying, "Who...Me?" is pathetic.
No one is coercing you into anything. No one is attacking your right to an opinion. Once you cast that opinion, try to back it up with some degree of intelligence. I've already shown how it can be done on this thread.
Read.
cardero
Citizen Mod
And grandiose examples of non-participation. Were one of those two posts you deleted the answers to that simple test I inquired about in Post #31?
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by cardero
This is a common but desparate defense.
....
To be honest Katzpur, I am not an organization but just one person and I do not really qualify for these accusations. I have never pursued money or fortune or felt a need to extract money from others, so it would go without saying that I do not have a lot to financially offer someone. The prospect to give of my time and myself is probably the most successful gift I could offer anyone (at this moment). I use the word successful because when I do give anything of myself, it always is never expected but when it is received, it is very much appreciated. I think religions have promoted a high expectation of giving and in doing so have also brought high hopes in what exactly they could and should deliver. They have over-extended their pride and credibility and our now unable to recognize the capacity and capability of their giving potential. The biggest difference between what I have to offer and what any religious organization has to offer is that when the receiver of the gift looks over our shoulders, they will never see or discover anything that over-exceeds my contribution. They will know that I have given all I could give.
Garbage. Pat yourself on the back. It must be nice to hold to a religion of one and criticize others when you have no knowledge of what you speak of. A small number of people inhabit a spartan building once a week and they are to be chided for spending money on maintaining that building. What if some of them travel to other nations to not only donate money but actually, physically, help other people.
Is it that they are a larger group than your island of one that they are wrong?
I ask for specifics. You provide none. A simple link to Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff, New Age organizations promoting spiritual beliefs to pad one's income, Schuller's Crystal Cathedral and many more when combined do not represent the variety of religious belief not only in this country but the world over. But then again, I am not the one casting generalized fallacious arguments in ignorance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardero
Let us say that some people donate money (around $50 million dollars), human time and talent to the religion of gnomon but the only two choices that the benefactors give you is that you can build a temple for God or use the money and manpower towards the care and cure towards muscular dystrophy. Which would you choose?
A boring false dichotomy which is completely unrelated to this...discussion.
Asked and answered.
Look. It's not that difficult.
Rather than casting about generalized statements of a religion with over 2 billion adherents it is better to point out specifics. As of yet, it has been nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.
I've even highlighted specifics for you.
Your simple test has been nothing more than a continuation of logical fallacies.
blackout
Violet.
Look.
I really don't know what you're after.
I was about as actively involved in Roman Catholic liturgy
as a lay person could be,
as the only paid musician in a parish for over 10 years.
The VAST majority of money collected there
went towards the multi million $mortgage
and upkeep of that simple suburban building.
and I tell you
that building was FOR the middle class people
who congregated there each week and filled the baskets.
I mean WHO ELSE WAS IT FOR?!?
It certainly was not for the sake of the poor and downtrodden!
It was so they could have their building.
(there is an interesting story there actually,
but it would take too long.)
Catholics MUST become a MEMBER of a parish
to get the sacraments they NEED for salvation.
All Members recieve PAYMENT ENVELOPES
in the mail with their names on them,
and really they are EXPECTED to contribute.
why do YOU think God would REQUIRE something like this?
(a specific answer would be nice.)
I really don't know what you're after.
I was about as actively involved in Roman Catholic liturgy
as a lay person could be,
as the only paid musician in a parish for over 10 years.
The VAST majority of money collected there
went towards the multi million $mortgage
and upkeep of that simple suburban building.
and I tell you
that building was FOR the middle class people
who congregated there each week and filled the baskets.
I mean WHO ELSE WAS IT FOR?!?
It certainly was not for the sake of the poor and downtrodden!
It was so they could have their building.
(there is an interesting story there actually,
but it would take too long.)
Catholics MUST become a MEMBER of a parish
to get the sacraments they NEED for salvation.
All Members recieve PAYMENT ENVELOPES
in the mail with their names on them,
and really they are EXPECTED to contribute.
why do YOU think God would REQUIRE something like this?
(a specific answer would be nice.)
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Here, I'll even do some more of the work.
Peter Popoff,
Peter Popoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
YouTube - James Randi Debunks Peter Popoff Faith Healer
YouTube - Peter Popoff vs James Randi 2007
Benny Hinn,
Benny Hinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
YouTube - Benny Hinn: A Massive Fraud & A Crook
There are two very obvious points folks could use to support the notion of money ruining religion. They are specifics. They are evidence.
They are not representative. They do not allow someone to cast a generalized opinion and expect to not get smacked down for it.
Please, don't make me be any clearer or else I'll become rude.
Peter Popoff,
Peter Popoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
YouTube - James Randi Debunks Peter Popoff Faith Healer
YouTube - Peter Popoff vs James Randi 2007
Benny Hinn,
Benny Hinn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
YouTube - Benny Hinn: A Massive Fraud & A Crook
There are two very obvious points folks could use to support the notion of money ruining religion. They are specifics. They are evidence.
They are not representative. They do not allow someone to cast a generalized opinion and expect to not get smacked down for it.
Please, don't make me be any clearer or else I'll become rude.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
Actually, that is something of what I am looking for when an assertion is made. A reason.
To continue from here I would say which God? I don't know a single Baptist church anywhere near me that does such a thing. They barely scrape their rent together while at the same time sponsoring mission work. And to keep this from getting off topic, the one's I know of do "mission" work in areas where Christianity has already been adopted and the work is more along the lines of the Peace Corps.
Anyway, there are churches out there that do such things. But out of all the churches, synagogues, mosques...every conceivable structure that religions inhabit or tools used for their rituals...you would not assert that they are all like the church you experienced would you?
edit: And frubals for showing incredible patience and indulging me.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
How many times can I say no. Disengage yourself from the issue. Your hangup on your question will not be satisfied.
cardero
Citizen Mod
I thank you for the links but to be honest, I am not familiar with these people gnomon. I do not require their assistance in this discussion. The understanding that I do require in this discussion is yours.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
They are individuals practicing exactly what the OP refers to. They are evidence. Greed corrupting the church. Money destroying the meaning.
What was presented in the first part of the discussion to the OP was the following:
Fallacy of composition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
but mainly this
Hasty generalization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here's an example once again going back to my experience in AA. The few particular groups within vicinity, basically walking distance or where I could get a ride to, followed the same philosophy. Highly spiritual, controlling and very much destructive to members who also suffered from mental illness. I would never point out these clubhouses to an individual seeking help unless I knew they fit in exactly with that philosophy. Nor would I categorize the whole of AA as holding that philosophy based on a few clubhouses. I did for a short while. Fortunately I also have experience of more clubhouses who do not hold onto such a philosophy.
My overall point is not about money, religion...or AA. It's about how we think. Categorizing entire groups of people based on one particular part of the group or without any knowledge at all.
It also comes to my frustration as to what I perceive as an apparent increase on this forum in doing such a thing against Christianity in particular. It's become more of put Christians on the spot and make them defend their belief primarily by individuals, to be quite honest, who offer nothing more than vague belief systems of their own. I could be wrong. I'm probably wrong.
But on this thread, I am right.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
He actually started a thread in his own forum for that.
Besides, your stealing my fire and thunder!:drool:
I've already built up enough ill will for myself I'll be ingratiating myself for a month.
blackout
Violet.
Are you really so unaware of these normal mainstream largescale church practices that I had to type out the obvious? But fine then. I'm glad I was able to provide what you were looking for.
So do the Baptist churches in your area cancel out all the exclusive megachurch monstrosities that exist? You do at least ADMIT they exist... right?
As I said before. Better to pay a rent if necessary, than a whole new mortgage.
Still better to pay nothing. (if possible) IMHO
I certainly HOPE by your statement above...
you do not think the parish I described is ANY DIFFERENT
from ANY other Roman Catholic parish in this regard.
This is business AS USUAL in the Roman Catholic church
AS A WHOLE. And it's FREIKIN HUGE. HUGE.
Just start there and begin multiplying.
Why you feel the need to make me document all the churches
religions and denominations
that spend as little as possible on anything but the needy
I do not know. That was not the OP question.
In all fairness,
I would like to see you go out now
and document a few billion dollars of
"club money" masquarading as "church money".
It shouldn't take too long.
gnomon
Well-Known Member
I am not the one making the assertion of how much money Church's, or religion, waste.
edit: See my response to Cardero about what I'm really arguing here. It's not the OP. If the OP had been a topic which generated responses such as Muslims are terrorists, Pagans recruit from the RPG crowd or white men can't jump my responses would have been the same. Taking a part of the whole and categorizing the whole based on that part is a logical fallacy that all of us are guilty of committing at some time.
Your last paragraph actually touches the issue. Who here possesses the knowledge that religions are wasting money? The task is monumental. Also, there is the factor of every religion's mission and rituals. With the billions of adherents, the thousands of denominations, rituals and variations...practically speaking any assertion is most likely to be a generalized one.
blackout
Violet.
I am not the one making the assertion of how much money Church's, or religion, waste.
How evasive.
(I'm done here now.
Frankly it doesn't interest me enough
to be worth all the time I'm putting into it.
I really don't care how people spend their money.
I like the stories of people giving one another a hand up though.
weather it involves money or not.)