When the Sky?

[sandy whitelinger]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Then in verse 20 there is an atmosphere for the birds to fly in. There seems to be no mention of where it came from. When was it formed in the narrative?

 

[Grandliseur]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Then in verse 20 there is an atmosphere for the birds to fly in. There seems to be no mention of where it came from. When was it formed in the narrative?

You need to read Genesis chapter one with the perspective of a person standing on the surface of the earth. If you do, and take into account what happens when a proto-sun begins to shine, solar wind sweeping away the unused material between the planets, and the early atmosphere of the earth where it was totally shrouded in extremely dirty water vapor, etc. You will understand that from we enter this account, the solar system is as we know it, more or less, the moon is in orbit, etc.

Since the earth early on had a very dirty atmosphere due to more or less continual bombardment by various objects still falling from the sky as may be seen from our scarred moon, this is why we read that the sun didn't become visible until the fourth day. (Gen 1:3-5). This permitted the seeing poorly of the sun and moon. Only during the 4th day, did the atmosphere become clear enough to see things clearly (Gen 1:14-19) This is also when God established the earth's rotation as is quite clearly stated.

Again, please remember this is from the perspective of someone standing on earth's surface.

Each creative day, Terra forming period, was at a minimum 7000 years long but could have been much longer. This is not divulged to us.

 

[Skwim]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Then in verse 20 there is an atmosphere for the birds to fly in. There seems to be no mention of where it came from.

So What? It also says "there was evening, and then there was morning," but it never says where they came from. At most it says "he separated the light from the darkness." Evening and morning require the earth to turn on its axis, but there's nothing about god spinning the earth.

 

[Skwim]

You need to read Genesis chapter one with the perspective of a person standing on the surface of the earth. If you do, and take into account what happens when a proto-sun begins to shine, solar wind sweeping away the unused material between the planets, and the early atmosphere of the earth where it was totally shrouded in extremely dirty water vapor, etc. You will understand that from we enter this account, the solar system is as we know it, more or less, the moon is in orbit, etc.

You've got to be kidding! Although I think you're actually serious here.

Since the earth early on had a very dirty atmosphere due to more or less continual bombardment by various objects still falling from the sky as may be seen from our scarred moon, this is why we read that the sun didn't become visible until the fourth day. (Gen 1:3-5). This permitted the seeing poorly of the sun and moon. Only during the 4th day, did the atmosphere become clear enough to see things clearly (Gen 1:14-19) This is also when God established the earth's rotation as is quite clearly stated.

Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19? Of course the whole chronology of what happened on what day makes no sense at all, but I guess that's just one of those things good Jews and Christians force themselves to ignore.

.

 

[Grandliseur]

You've got to be kidding! Although I think you're actually serious here.


Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19? Of course the whole chronology of what happened on what day makes no sense at all, but I guess that's just one of those things good Jews and Christians force themselves to ignore.

.

The point about Genesis 1, God, and science is that God is not a magician. He is the supreme scientist with the power to make what he wants. To understand Genesis chapter one at all, it is necessary to accept these things as fact.

If you don't, Genesis chapter one makes no sense. But, each to his own. I am just trying to help someone who asks a question.
What are you trying to do?

I have made this point previously about chapter one - namely, that if God had used a scientific explanation no scientists could refuse - the evidence for his having inspired this and him existing would be more than he desires. As we are told, we go by faith, not by sight.

 

[Skwim]

The point about Genesis 1, God, and science is that God is not a magician. He is the supreme scientist with the power to make what he wants. To understand Genesis chapter one at all, it is necessary to accept these things as fact.

Genesis 1 or the things you've made up about it? I can easily buy into any tale, be it fiction or fact, and run with it. What I can't do is accept things others imagine about it. So again, I ask:

"Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19?"​

Now, I understand if you're too embarrassed to offer up a reasonable answer, but please don't start tap dancing around it as if that should suffice.

If you don't, Genesis chapter one makes no sense. But, each to his own. I am just trying to help someone who asks a question.
What are you trying to do?

Make sense of your assumptions. Like, where did they come from?

I have made this point previously about chapter one - namely, that if God had used a scientific explanation no scientists could refuse - the evidence for his having inspired this and him existing would be more than he desires. As we are told, we go by faith, not by sight.

Boy, knowing what god desired must make you some kind. . . . . . . err, what do they call people who are privy to god's unstated desires? Help me out here. I want to get this right.

.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You need to read Genesis chapter one with the perspective of a person standing on the surface of the earth. If you do, and take into account what happens when a proto-sun begins to shine, solar wind sweeping away the unused material between the planets, and the early atmosphere of the earth where it was totally shrouded in extremely dirty water vapor, etc. You will understand that from we enter this account, the solar system is as we know it, more or less, the moon is in orbit, etc.

Since the earth early on had a very dirty atmosphere due to more or less continual bombardment by various objects still falling from the sky as may be seen from our scarred moon, this is why we read that the sun didn't become visible until the fourth day. (Gen 1:3-5). This permitted the seeing poorly of the sun and moon. Only during the 4th day, did the atmosphere become clear enough to see things clearly (Gen 1:14-19) This is also when God established the earth's rotation as is quite clearly stated.

Again, please remember this is from the perspective of someone standing on earth's surface.

Each creative day, Terra forming period, was at a minimum 7000 years long but could have been much longer. This is not divulged to us.

I'm attempting to put this in light of the narrative. Sky had to come from somewhere. My best estimate from the text is that it was either part of the formless and void earth, the deep, or the heaven of 1:1.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Genesis 1 or the things you've made up about it? I can easily buy into any tale, be it fiction or fact, and run with it. What I can't do is accept things others imagine about it. So again, I ask:

"Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19?"​

Now, I understand if you're too embarrassed to offer up a reasonable answer, but please don't start tap dancing around it as if that should suffice.


Make sense of your assumptions. Like, where did they come from?


Boy, knowing what god desired must make you some kind. . . . . . . err, what do they call people who are privy to god's unstated desires? Help me out here. I want to get this right.

.

Sheesh.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So What?

An inquiring mind wants to know.

 

[Grandliseur]

So again, I ask:

"Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19?"

You have the right to your beliefs. Unfortunately, I think you have stated clearly you don't believe the Bible God's inspired word. This then presents us with an insurmountable problem in understanding this divine text.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.​

And, why do you suppose that we are told this happens twice?

You can interpret as you like, but so do I. But, let me hear your explanation, please. If in v. 14 it is mentioned that now it divides day and night, then it didn't do this in 3-6.

Please, let us hear you enlightened explanation of this text that makes scientific sense, rational sense.

​

 

[Grandliseur]

I'm attempting to put this in light of the narrative. Sky had to come from somewhere. My best estimate from the text is that it was either part of the formless and void earth, the deep, or the heaven of 1:1.

If you study what the early solar system was, how our atmosphere is said to begin an atomic winter if these weapons are used of if super-volcanoes go off due to the shutting out of the sun's light, we can understand that when God divided the water vapors into what is above and the seas, that this constituted our atmosphere in the beginning. This atmosphere then grew gradually cleaner over time.

The time we enter into this story is when God already has the earth and moon system set up, kind of, where the earth already has an atmosphere though not ready for us yet:

2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.​

In verse 2, you see the earth being too hot, with the water vapors and the dirty atmosphere in a mixture.
In verse 6, God then has cooled the earth down enough for the water vapors to become separated into seas on the ground, and our atmospheric water we have, though it was different back then.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If you study what the early solar system was, how our atmosphere is said to begin an atomic winter if these weapons are used of if super-volcanoes go off due to the shutting out of the sun's light, we can understand that when God divided the water vapors into what is above and the seas, that this constituted our atmosphere in the beginning. This atmosphere then grew gradually cleaner over time.

The time we enter into this story is when God already has the earth and moon system set up, kind of, where the earth already has an atmosphere though not ready for us yet:

2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.​

In verse 2, you see the earth being too hot, with the water vapors and the dirty atmosphere in a mixture.
In verse 6, God then has cooled the earth down enough for the water vapors to become separated into seas on the ground, and our atmospheric water we have, though it was different back then.

You seem to be misundetstanding the dividing of the waters. The firmament did that. The firmament is space.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

So What? It also says "there was evening, and then there was morning," but it never says where they came from. At most it says "he separated the light from the darkness." Evening and morning require the earth to turn on its axis, but there's nothing about god spinning the earth.

You deserve a clearer answer. It concerns the nature of heaven/heavens and reflects back to the nature of verse 1:1, whether it's an introduction or the beginning of God's actual creation.

 

[Grandliseur]

You seem to be misundetstanding the dividing of the waters. The firmament did that. The firmament is space.

You are welcome to make sense of it yourself;

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.​

The teaching here is that God made a canopy of water that enveloped the entire earth. The firmament was the space in between the canopy and the ground, seas.

But, don't let my perspective hold you back.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You are welcome to make sense of it yourself;

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.​

The teaching here is that God made a canopy of water that enveloped the entire earth. The firmament was the space in between the canopy and the ground, seas.

But, don't let my perspective hold you back.

Are you familiar with Clarence Larkin's book "Dispesational Truth?"

 

[Grandliseur]

Are you familiar with Clarence Larkin's book "Dispesational Truth?"

I am an old man who spends his time mostly by reading books. I read about 3 plus books a week to keep my mind occupied. I have about 3000 volumes in my house. And, frankly, I cannot even remember what books I read last week.

I read mostly SciFi and Fantasy these days. Before, when I was younger, I was into physics, and mathematics, and the Bible. I do not read Christian literature as a rule. Don't like it, though much of American literature is based on it.

So, what is your point?!

I read books in English mostly, then in French, next in Danish, and at times a page or two in German. Danish gives me a headache. I love looking at Japanese martial arts movies which I can follow, kind of. I also love Chinese movies when they have subtitles.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I am an old man who spends his time mostly by reading books. I read about 3 plus books a week to keep my mind occupied. I have about 6000 volumes in my house. And, frankly, I cannot even remember what books I read last week.

I read mostly SciFi and Fantasy these days. Before, when I was younger, I was into physics, and mathematics, and the Bible. I do not read Christian literature as a rule. Don't like it, though much of American literature is based on it.

So, what is your point?!

I read books in English mostly, then in French, next in Danish, and at times a page or two in German. Danish gives me a headache.

Larkin's book was a popular source for the canopy theory. The theory is not his though. It came from Isaac Vail in the late 1800's I believe. It's a product of the rampant allegorical look at Scripture caused by replacement theology.

Now back to the narrative. The firmament is a heaven and it's where the sun moon and stars are. This is not the sky unless you want to follow the comical view that the firmament is a curved dome ala the pre- Michaelangelo Sistine Chapel with stars painted on the domed vault depicting the old Jewish depictions is the cosmos. Might as well throw in some geocentric universe models as well.

By the way, Larkin's book explains the mysteries of the church rather well.

 

[Grandliseur]

and it's where the sun moon and stars are

You need to read what the scripture says that I quoted and not rely on 3rd parties for their interpretation when a direct reading gives the explanation. But, that is up to you. I just tried to assist you. If you have another idea, fine with me.

The canopy idea as you claim is by a recent person is the only explanation possible for rain not to happen before the flood. It also explains why the entire earth was warm as was the case back then.

Alaska -- once hot enough for palm trees?

Ancient Earth Not as Hot as Previously Thought

Researchers think Antarctica served as animals' interstate

Tiny Fossils Reveal Warm Antarctic Past

I think one of my bookmarks is expired, but check the rest.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You need to read what the scripture says that I quoted and not rely on 3rd parties for their interpretation when a direct reading gives the explanation. But, that is up to you. I just tried to assist you. If you have another idea, fine with me.

The canopy idea as you claim is by a recent person is the only explanation possible for rain not to happen before the flood. It also explains why the entire earth was warm as was the case back then.

Alaska -- once hot enough for palm trees?

Ancient Earth Not as Hot as Previously Thought

Researchers think Antarctica served as animals' interstate

Tiny Fossils Reveal Warm Antarctic Past

I think one of my bookmarks is expired, but check the rest.

I guess you have your hobby horse and I have mine.
"To the universe and beyond."
"Hi yo Silver away."

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You need to read what the scripture says that I quoted and not rely on 3rd parties for their interpretation when a direct reading gives the explanation. But, that is up to you. I just tried to assist you. If you have another idea, fine with me.

The canopy idea as you claim is by a recent person is the only explanation possible for rain not to happen before the flood. It also explains why the entire earth was warm as was the case back then.

Alaska -- once hot enough for palm trees?

Ancient Earth Not as Hot as Previously Thought

Researchers think Antarctica served as animals' interstate

Tiny Fossils Reveal Warm Antarctic Past

I think one of my bookmarks is expired, but check the rest.

By the way. I'm all in favor of reforestation to the arctic circle. Go global warming.