When the Sky?

[Grandliseur]

By the way. I'm all in favor of reforestation to the arctic circle. Go global warming.

The whole issue is beyond human control and management. God promises to make most of the earth bountiful again. What this entails and how this shall be done - is beyond me. At the moment, animals are dying in many places in extreme numbers and extermination of many kinds is happening. This is not what is wanted.

 

[Akivah]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Then in verse 20 there is an atmosphere for the birds to fly in. There seems to be no mention of where it came from. When was it formed in the narrative?

I never understand why people look for so much scientific detail in the bible. The creation of the world is just the first page or two. If the bible listed every detail G-d did for the Creation 1) there would be no room for anything else and 2) just one book couldn't cover it all anyways. There are thousands of scientific books for this stuff.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I never understand why people look for so much scientific detail in the bible. The creation of the world is just the first page or two. If the bible listed every detail G-d did for the Creation 1) there would be no room for anything else and 2) just one book couldn't cover it all anyways. There are thousands of scientific books for this stuff.

Im just diggin into what is there. It offers up a perspective of what heaven was like in the narrative. Was the deep more than it seemed is one question I have. And the duality of heaven that may have existed intrigues me as well because the heaven of 1:1 seems to be multiple in it's nature.

It also seems that this can be derived from the narrative with little of the natural world science to have to answer for. In spite of some others propensity for elucidation in the matter.

 

[Skwim]

You have the right to your beliefs. Unfortunately, I think you have stated clearly you don't believe the Bible God's inspired word. This then presents us with an insurmountable problem in understanding this divine text.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.​

And, why do you suppose that we are told this happens twice?

You can interpret as you like, but so do I. But, let me hear your explanation, please. If in v. 14 it is mentioned that now it divides day and night, then it didn't do this in 3-6.

Please, let us hear you enlightened explanation of this text that makes scientific sense, rational sense.

​

Nah, that's not how it works. You don't get to simply put my question on "ignore" and then go on with your own. FIRST you answer my question.

"Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19?"

.​

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You need to read what the scripture says that I quoted and not rely on 3rd parties for their interpretation when a direct reading gives the explanation.

I'll take you upon that because it's so easy. Genesis 1:14 - 19.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you don't, Genesis chapter one makes no sense.

On the contrary... Genesis 1 makes perfect sense: as the creation of Bronze Age, prescientific people trying to come to grips with where they came from, their significance, and their place in the natural order.

It only makes no sense if you assume it has to be correct.

 

[dfnj]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Then in verse 20 there is an atmosphere for the birds to fly in. There seems to be no mention of where it came from. When was it formed in the narrative?

You do know an omnipotent God can create the Earth and Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating and fossil evidence. An omnipotent God could have created the Universe just moments ago with all your fake memories intact. Omnipotent powers have no limits.

 

[sealchan]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Then in verse 20 there is an atmosphere for the birds to fly in. There seems to be no mention of where it came from. When was it formed in the narrative?

My reading is that the "vault of the sky" is what separated the waters. So you have the seas below the vault and, presumably the clouds above the vault. In this reading, it would appear that all of the air above the seas and below the clouds is this vault/sky and this is also where we walk and breathe and where the birds fly.

The thing that is inconsistent to me is that the stars and the sun and moon are obscured by the clouds. It would seem that the clouds are ambiguously placed both above the sun, moon and stars as the upper separated waters and also below the sun, moon and stars because it is obvious that they are sometimes blocked by the clouds.

Alternatively, perhaps, the waters above the vault gave birth to clouds within the vault below them and in this way the clouds obscure the sun, moon and stars.

So it seems I have basically used a common-sense understanding of clouds to create a problem in this description of the cosmos.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

My reading is that the "vault of the sky" is what separated the waters. So you have the seas below the vault and, presumably the clouds above the vault. In this reading, it would appear that all of the air above the seas and below the clouds is this vault/sky and this is also where we walk and breathe and where the birds fly.

The thing that is inconsistent to me is that the stars and the sun and moon are obscured by the clouds. It would seem that the clouds are ambiguously placed both above the sun, moon and stars as the upper separated waters and also below the sun, moon and stars because it is obvious that they are sometimes blocked by the clouds.

Alternatively, perhaps, the waters above the vault gave birth to clouds within the vault below them and in this way the clouds obscure the sun, moon and stars.

So it seems I have basically used a common-sense understanding of clouds to create a problem in this description of the cosmos.

That would seem to be the wrong interpretation and it has it's roots and is a b*stard offspring of replacement theology. Prolly why it makes no sense to you.
The firmament of heaven, created on the 2nd day is clearly what sepearated the waters. Verses 14-19 clearly shows the sun moon and stars as being in the firmament.

It is the "open firmament of heaven " of verse 20 is where the birds fly. This clearly puts this as the atmosphere and the firmament of heaven as space.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

You do know an omnipotent God can create the Earth and Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating and fossil evidence. An omnipotent God could have created the Universe just moments ago with all your fake memories intact. Omnipotent powers have no limits.

Thanks for stopping by.

 

[blü 2]

You need to read what the scripture says that I quoted and not rely on 3rd parties for their interpretation

Good advice.

As you can see from the bible quotes on >this link<, the bible describes its cosmology very clearly. The earth is fixed and immovable; and the heavenly bodies go round it (geocentry). The earth is flat, shaped either like a plate or a table (flat earth). The firmament is a solid dome over the earth, and you can walk on it. The stars are affixed to it; and if they become detached, they'll fall to earth.

Standard bronze age science, in other words. What else should we expect?

 

[sealchan]

That would seem to be the wrong interpretation and it has it's roots and is a b*stard offspring of replacement theology. Prolly why it makes no sense to you.
The firmament of heaven, created on the 2nd day is clearly what sepearated the waters. Verses 14-19 clearly shows the sun moon and stars as being in the firmament.

It is the "open firmament of heaven " of verse 20 is where the birds fly. This clearly puts this as the atmosphere and the firmament of heaven as space.

Okay, the KJV says...

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

...then the text seems to move on to describing what is happening on the earth. Hmmm, heaven is singular in the KJV...

Then...

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

Ah! I see. I was reading the NIV...in the NIV verse 8 doesn't refer back to verse 1. The NIV has vault and sky and never goes back to saying heaven.

So the KJV would seem to indicate that the waters are all a part of earth and that the firmament in the midst of the waters is heaven which is also the atmosphere. So Heaven IS the firmament and the firmament is still what is between the waters. I'm still assuming that the clouds are of the "waters which were above". This is an infinite sandwich organization with waters as bread and heaven as the filling.

So the air we breathe would appear to be the atmosphere of heaven!

I don't think this is what you think but perhaps you would care to explain (again?)?

However, given the reference in 8 back to 1, then we have that verses 1-8 describe both the configuration of the earth and the appearance of heaven.

So in...

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

...we can see confirmation that heaven is where the birds fly and where we walk and breathe.

I honestly have never read this this way before but the more i do the more I like it. This is the most humble description of heaven and earth and it befits a sense of the Universe as not being more than is practically experienced. Really a most scientific perspective given the knowledge of the time and the propensity of most cultures to want to make much more of heaven than this.

Biblical scripture is from Genesis 1 KJV

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Okay, the KJV says...

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

...then the text seems to move on to describing what is happening on the earth. Hmmm, heaven is singular in the KJV...

Then...

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

Ah! I see. I was reading the NIV...in the NIV verse 8 doesn't refer back to verse 1. The NIV has vault and sky and never goes back to saying heaven.

So the KJV would seem to indicate that the waters are all a part of earth and that the firmament in the midst of the waters is heaven which is also the atmosphere. So Heaven IS the firmament and the firmament is still what is between the waters. I'm still assuming that the clouds are of the "waters which were above". This is an infinite sandwich organization with waters as bread and heaven as the filling.

So the air we breathe would appear to be the atmosphere of heaven!

I don't think this is what you think but perhaps you would care to explain (again?)?

However, given the reference in 8 back to 1, then we have that verses 1-8 describe both the configuration of the earth and the appearance of heaven.

So in...

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

...we can see confirmation that heaven is where the birds fly and where we walk and breathe.

I honestly have never read this this way before but the more i do the more I like it. This is the most humble description of heaven and earth and it befits a sense of the Universe as not being more than is practically experienced. Really a most scientific perspective given the knowledge of the time and the propensity of most cultures to want to make much more of heaven than this.

Biblical scripture is from Genesis 1 KJV

Um, your forgetting the part where God put the sun, the moon and the stars in your atmosphere. 1:14-20 KJV

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Okay, the KJV says...

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

...then the text seems to move on to describing what is happening on the earth. Hmmm, heaven is singular in the KJV...

Then...

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

Ah! I see. I was reading the NIV...in the NIV verse 8 doesn't refer back to verse 1. The NIV has vault and sky and never goes back to saying heaven.

So the KJV would seem to indicate that the waters are all a part of earth and that the firmament in the midst of the waters is heaven which is also the atmosphere. So Heaven IS the firmament and the firmament is still what is between the waters. I'm still assuming that the clouds are of the "waters which were above". This is an infinite sandwich organization with waters as bread and heaven as the filling.

So the air we breathe would appear to be the atmosphere of heaven!

I don't think this is what you think but perhaps you would care to explain (again?)?

However, given the reference in 8 back to 1, then we have that verses 1-8 describe both the configuration of the earth and the appearance of heaven.

So in...

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

...we can see confirmation that heaven is where the birds fly and where we walk and breathe.

I honestly have never read this this way before but the more i do the more I like it. This is the most humble description of heaven and earth and it befits a sense of the Universe as not being more than is practically experienced. Really a most scientific perspective given the knowledge of the time and the propensity of most cultures to want to make much more of heaven than this.

Biblical scripture is from Genesis 1 KJV

Think of a circle that is earth. There is water which makes up another circle surrounding it. This is the deep. Then the next circle is heaven, most probably God's abode. This is the most likely view of the Biblical world of Genesis 1:1 KJV. (I see another view here but follow this one through first if you will)

Along comes the firmament which adds a space right smack dab in the middle of all that water. The waters below are now on earth. There is a space called "the firmament of Heaven." This is where God put the sun the moon and the stars. This is the second heaven, 1:1 being the third (John was called to the third heaven in Revelation).

The waters above moved to the heaven (no capitalization here) of 1:1. The atmosphere is the "open firmament of heaven " where the birds fly. This is the first heaven.

Are you with me so far?

 

[Grandliseur]

Nah, that's not how it works. You don't get to simply put my question on "ignore" and then go on with your own. FIRST you answer my question.

"Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19?"

.​

I already in that post gave you the scriptures that show what things were about. You fail to address this. If you think you don't want to, that is fine with me. I have my interpretation from this material clearly stated. Why don't you explain things from your side. Or, call it quits. Fine with me.

 

[Grandliseur]

I'll take you upon that because it's so easy. Genesis 1:14 - 19.

Here is my viewpoint:

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Comment: The proto-sun had not begun to shine. The earth was shrouded in a dense atmosphere of dust and water caused by meteors and asteroids striking the earth. It was still too hot for the water vapors to settle down as lakes and seas. It probably did not contain oxygen in levels we are used to.​

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Comment: Here diffuse light from a sun not as strong as what we see (science says 70%) permitted light to be seen as in a haze but the sources were not clearly seen.​

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Comment: Here the firmament is that which is between the two 'bodies' of water, the seas and the canopy. Our atmosphere was being cleared up by the waters settling down as seas and above as a canopy functioning as a kind of hot house so that the whole planet experienced balmy temperatures. ​

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Comment: the light from previous was sufficient for the plants to thrive.​

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Comment: Here we see that the earth's rotation has been established to what we are familiar with. This didn't happen in the former light verses. Now, the atmosphere was clear enough to clearly see the sun and the moon, even the stars. The plants had now given our atmosphere enough oxygen for the animals to be created next.​

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.​

Pertaining to your question, this is what I get from this account. The viewpoint is always from a person standing on the earth's surface.

 

[Grandliseur]

It only makes no sense if you assume it has to be correct.

That is the difference between the unbeliever and the believer. The account easily makes sense, but you choose your unbelief.
I hope you are happy in it. I am happy in my convictions. It makes no difference to me that you choose to not believe even when things can be explained.

 

[Grandliseur]

Good advice.

As you can see from the bible quotes on >this link<, the bible describes its cosmology very clearly. The earth is fixed and immovable; and the heavenly bodies go round it (geocentry). The earth is flat, shaped either like a plate or a table (flat earth). The firmament is a solid dome over the earth, and you can walk on it. The stars are affixed to it; and if they become detached, they'll fall to earth.

Standard bronze age science, in other words. What else should we expect?

I know this is your concept of things. I have no quarrel with this. I just have another explanation that I believe in.
To me the Bible is a sieve, God's sieve. He sifts people by means of the Bible. He is not interested in teaching us science or astronomy, etc. This he has given us brains to study with. It was not meant for world conquest either, as we see clearly now some 2000 years after Christ - thereabouts.

It is not even a matter of intelligence at all. It is a matter of the heart. That's all. I take God to be omnipotent, but not omniscient (about future events), truly just and impartial. I believe in his existence, that he is the Creator of all things.

You don't believe; you're a skeptic. Me too, btw. I'm just skeptical about a lot of other things.
The above differences do not mean that we are incapable of enjoying a cup of coffee over a quiet conversation or a chess game. So, it makes little difference in this life. I am getting older, and so is everybody else; unless they are dead. I am enjoying the support and comfort I get from God through prayer, and you might be enjoying the New York times. Each to his own. I do not mind at all.

 

[Skwim]

I already in that post gave you the scriptures that show what things were about.

And neither of them says anything to the effect that

"Since the earth early on had a very dirty atmosphere due to more or less continual bombardment by various objects still falling from the sky as may be seen from our scarred moon, this is why we read that the sun didn't become visible until the fourth day. (Gen 1:3-5). This permitted the seeing poorly of the sun and moon."
​

OR

"Only during the 4th day, did the atmosphere become clear enough to see things clearly (Gen 1:14-19)"
​

And we both know it.

You fail to address this.

Actually I did when I asked you

"Where in Gen 1:3-5 does it say anything about the Sun being difficult to see, or that there was even a moon; AND that they (the Moon is made in this verse --the 4th day) were then clearly visible in v. 14-19?"​

I have my interpretation from this material clearly stated.

Yes you do, but do you really want to come across as cuckoo. Making up crap out of thin air?

Why don't you explain things from your side.

Okay. What you claim doesn't appear in the verses you cite.

Your turn. Show us that it does.

.

 

[Grandliseur]

And we both know it.

What do we both know? I know I live on this earth, you know this also. Did the early earth sustain heavy bombardments as the moon did?
What is the present scientific reasoning behind the extinction of the dinosaurs? Here is an excerpt of that event:

After the red glow, the sky would darken as ash and debris swirling around the globe created a creeping twilight.

“For the first few hours, there would have been close to total darkness,” says Collins. “But soon after that, the sky would begin to lighten. The following weeks, months perhaps even years were probably somewhere between twilight and a very cloudy day.”
Here’s What Happened the Day the Dinosaurs Died
​

So, is my claim that in the early days - when these things fell regularly from the sky - that the sun was not clearly visible- is that claim reasonable and scientific?! Is this the difference we see here:

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
. . .
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
​

So, all I know is that the account in Genesis describes perfectly the scenario science gives us; it itself tells us happened when the dinosaur were killed off. This is what I see. What you see is really not any concern to me unless you want to ask me questions to clarify your own viewpoints.

When then science tells us that early on, the proto-sun only shone with 70% of the power it does today, I rest my opinion in clear rationality to my own studies. What you believe here is, again and again, no concern of mine unless you want to explore the account under my microscope.

As to the Terra-forming days of Genesis, all I can say is that their minimum length is 7000 years long, the maximum I have no idea about.

​