"Where Did Life Come From?" A 13 Minute Primer For Creationists

[Hockeycowboy]

”it [the Modern Synthesis] doesn’t capture the full richness of evolution."

Exactly!
But you stated in post 139, that “familiar, everyday mechanisms are sufficient”.
Apparently not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exactly!
But you stated in post 139, that “familiar, everyday mechanisms are sufficient”.
Apparently not.

No, you are conflating arguing about the details with the already well proven fact of evolution. And just in case you are wondering I am using the legal standard of proof. If you reject the theory of evolution then by the same logic you should reject any and every "guilty" verdict by every jury everywhere since none of them have the level of evidence that there is that supports evolution.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And odd that all of those other articles are apparently legitimate, yet mysteriously he writes one pro-bible, pro-Noah's ark paper... and suddenly his status is elevated from perhaps hard-working nobody to highly credentialed superstar incapable of being wrong.

And so what if he is right - that a box with scaled-down dimensions supposedly matching those of this ark showing that it could have floated does not by any means indicate that the flood really happened, that the animals were brought from afar to this ark, etc.

Sort of like claiming that I drive the fastest car in the world, and supporting that by showing a publication demonstrating that wheels roll.

Nope..doesn’t fit.

Those ratios of the Ark would only be useless evidence, if other non-powered, barge-like ships from the same era utilized those ratios.

Yet, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the vessel described, was almost a cube! Another myth from the same era described the boat as circular! These do not work...the Ark in Genesis, does.

 

[Jose Fly]

Science is entirely indifferent to god. It follows evidence. If evidence of a god meddling in things exists, science would be glad to consider it.
So far no such evidence exists.

It's important to understand that @Hockeycowboy believes the world's scientific community is, and has been, under the influence of Satan (apparently in order to turn all of us away from Jehovah).

But don't worry....eventually he'll leave this discussion, wait a few days to a week, and later turn up in another thread making all the exact same arguments.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope..doesn’t fit.

Those ratios of the Ark would only be useless evidence, if other non-powered, barge-like ships from the same era utilized those ratios.

Yet, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the vessel described, was almost a cube! Another myth from the same era described the boat as circular! These do not work...the Ark in Genesis, does.

The Ark does not work either. People have tried to build reproductions and they all have one thing in common. None of them are seaworthy. And that is in normal seas. You want to have the Ark be seaworthy in the worst storm ever by several orders of magnitude. When your excuses for just the failures of the Ark all amount to "magic" is it an wonder that no one takes it seriously.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It's important to understand that @Hockeycowboy believes the world's scientific community is, and has been, under the influence of Satan (apparently in order to turn all of us away from Jehovah).

But don't worry....eventually he'll leave this discussion, wait a few days to a week, and later turn up in another thread making all the exact same arguments.

Lol!

Thoroughly debunk them, and I’ll adjust my understanding.

My goal is to gain an accurate understanding of all history.

It seems you’re happy with assumptions and suppositions.

Heck, you can’t even admit that there are some people, even on these forums, who experience genuine paranormal experiences. You need to call these events ‘mental delusions’ or ‘aberrations’, to maintain your worldview.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It's important to understand that @Hockeycowboy believes the world's scientific community is, and has been, under the influence of Satan (apparently in order to turn all of us away from Jehovah).

No, not all of it...many are searching for honest answers, like Drs. Behe, Meyer, Axe, Minnich, etc.

(I surmise that there are many, many others who aren’t committed to the mainstream views...but they need to keep their jobs. When they retire, they’ll sign the Dissent....maybe.)

Jehovah knows what’s in people’s hearts.

But Revelation 12:9, 1 John 5:19, and 2 Corinthians 4:4 — even Jesus himself, @ John 12:31 — reveal who is behind this crazy, mixed-up world.

 

[Jose Fly]

Thoroughly debunk them, and I’ll adjust my understanding.

I tend to doubt it, given what's at stake.

Heck, you can’t even admit that there are some people, even on these forums, who experience genuine paranormal experiences. You need to call these events ‘mental delusions’ or ‘aberrations’, to maintain your worldview.

Nope, never said anything like that at all.

No, not all of it...many are searching for honest answers, like Drs. Behe, Meyer, Axe, Minnich, etc.

So it's just those associated with creationism who are "searching for honest answers", whereas the scientists who aren't associated with creationism are under the influence of Satan.

Also, Behe acknowledges universal common ancestry (including humans) as real, and just thinks God had to step in and manipulate things from time to time. Is that what you believe?

(I surmise that there are many, many others who aren’t committed to the mainstream views...but they need to keep their jobs. When they retire, they’ll sign the Dissent....maybe.)

Well, you'll forgive me if I don't put much stock in a Jehovah's Witness' take on the scientific community.

Jehovah knows what’s in people’s hearts.

But Revelation 12:9, 1 John 5:19, and 2 Corinthians 4:4 — even Jesus himself, @ John 12:31 — reveal who is behind this crazy, mixed-up world.

I'm aware of what you believe.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lol!

Thoroughly debunk them, and I’ll adjust my understanding.

My goal is to gain an accurate understanding of all history.

It seems you’re happy with assumptions and suppositions.

Heck, you can’t even admit that there are some people, even on these forums, who experience genuine paranormal experiences. You need to call these events ‘mental delusions’ or ‘aberrations’, to maintain your worldview.

People may believe that they have experienced "genuine paranormal experiences" , but they lack reliable evidence for those claims.

 

[Skwim]

Nope..doesn’t fit.

Those ratios of the Ark would only be useless evidence, if other non-powered, barge-like ships from the same era utilized those ratios.

Yet, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the vessel described, was almost a cube! Another myth from the same era described the boat as circular! These do not work...the Ark in Genesis, does.

The various forms of life (at least two each) the ark would have had to save on board plus all the food necessary to feed it for 364 days:

​

A simplified diagram

​

And in Eukarya alone we have umteen life forms

​

And you want us to believe the ark held them all*.

. ​

* "To date, a total of 1.3 million species have been identified and described, but the truth is that many more live on Earth. The most accurate census, conducted by the Hawaii’s University, estimates that a total of 8.7 million species live on the planet."
source

​

 

[Valjean]

Exactly!
But you stated in post 139, that “familiar, everyday mechanisms are sufficient”.
Apparently not.

What mechanisms do you have a problem with? Your appeal to magic makes me suspect that your distrust of science is underlain by a lack of familiarity with the disciplines involved and their relevant findings.

 

[Valjean]

It's important to understand that @Hockeycowboy believes the world's scientific community is, and has been, under the influence of Satan (apparently in order to turn all of us away from Jehovah).

But don't worry....eventually he'll leave this discussion, wait a few days to a week, and later turn up in another thread making all the exact same arguments.

Quite a remarkable conspiracy. Usually just two people have a hard time keeping a secret, but millions of unrelated scientists?
Color me skeptical.

 

[Valjean]

Nope..doesn’t fit.

Those ratios of the Ark would only be useless evidence, if other non-powered, barge-like ships from the same era utilized those ratios.

Yet, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the vessel described, was almost a cube! Another myth from the same era described the boat as circular! These do not work...the Ark in Genesis, does.

Why this obsession with the ark? It's a minor detail in a major myth. The whole story is fabulous.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And you want us to believe the ark held them all*.

Nope, I do not.

I agree w/ certain evolutionary changes within many genera and up to some Family taxa. But all organisms stay within their Family groups.

 

[Valjean]

Lol!

Thoroughly debunk them, and I’ll adjust my understanding.

My goal is to gain an accurate understanding of all history.

Then use reliable sources, preferably testable and corroborated. If you begin with a presumed, unevidenced plan and magical master of ceremonies you're going to see apophenic connections everywhere.

It seems you’re happy with assumptions and suppositions.

My assumptions and suppositions are better evidenced than your deus ex machina. Moreover, science isn't happy with assumptions, either, that's why it tests them as part of its investigative process.

Heck, you can’t even admit that there are some people, even on these forums, who experience genuine paranormal experiences. You need to call these events ‘mental delusions’ or ‘aberrations’, to maintain your worldview.

When did I ever dismiss paranormal experiences? I've had paranormal experiences myself, but I'd be suspicious of anyone who accepted my stories without additional evidence.
Unfortunately, "paranormal experiences" often vary, and are usually interpreted through a cultural or mythological filter.

 

[Valjean]

Nope, I do not.
I agree w/ certain evolutionary changes within many genera and up to some Family taxa. But all organisms stay within their Family groups.

Why do you think that, when all the evidence, and all the experts in the field think otherwise?

How do the minor, in-taxa changes know when to stop, so as to avoid crossing the line into new species?

How do you explain ring species?

 

[Skwim]

Nope, I do not.

I agree w/ certain evolutionary changes within many genera and up to some Family taxa. But all organisms stay within their Family groups.

I assume your saying that back in Noah's day there were far, far, far fewer species, perhaps what, a few thousand?---think the ark could hold two of each few thousand plus their provisions?---And obviously far, far fewer genera, perhaps only a few hundred. And that in the last two thousand years BC there was an incredible evolutionary explosion of species after the ark dumped its cargo, which gave us the approximately 8 million species we have today? All without leaving a single trace of such an evolutionary event? Hardly.

This is as absurd as the flood itself.

. ​

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Your major premise needs to be verified before you can proceed with your argument

It does?

That’s not what you said here:

Wasn't Einstein's theory of relativity initiated by a dream?

It doesn't matter where the inspiration comes from. What matters is the process used to follow up on it, the scientific method.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I assume your saying that back in Noah's day there were far, far, far fewer species, perhaps what, a few thousand?---think the ark could hold two of each few thousand plus their provisions?---And obviously far, far fewer genera, perhaps only a few hundred. And that in the last two thousand years BC there was an incredible evolutionary explosion of species after the ark dumped its cargo, which gave us the approximately 8 million species we have today? All without leaving a single trace of such an evolutionary event? Hardly.

This is as absurd as the flood itself.

View attachment 33457

. ​

Again, no.

After probably millions of years of evolutionary changes, the Earth no doubt contained many different species! Only representatives of those Animalia Families were needed.

Here’s an article linking a paper that discusses just how many species the Ark could hold:

‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’

 

[Valjean]

It does?

That’s not what you said here:

Valjean said: ↑
Wasn't Einstein's theory of relativity initiated by a dream?

It doesn't matter where the inspiration comes from. What matters is the process used to follow up on it, the scientific method.

How did you come up with that bizarre interpretation?
Lines of research often result from imagination or conjecture, but it's not the inspiration that supports the resulting research conclusions.
Focus on the actual research findings.