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Where did the word Judaism come from?

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Of course Moses never said his religion was Judaism. Why would he label his religion by the name of one of the 12 tribes? Why would he even call it a religion when it was, for him, simply an exhaustive social code centered around an omnipresent deity whom he encountered day to day?

Can you show me a use of the word (in English or Hebrew) Jew/Judaism from before the Scroll of Esther (approx 350 BCE)?
Indeed. Ancient people generally didn't have names for their religions. It was just "the way we do things here." For the Western world at least, Christianity was the first to pioneer the concept of a named religion that was separable from the native culture of a place. Even Judaism in ancient times wasn't strictly a religious designator but an entire culture—and one that only arose in comparing these people here against those over there. It's basically the equivalent of "Hellenism."

And the reason why we don't see references to Judaism as such before the 4th century BCE or so is probably because Judaism as a self-conscious national identity is a post-Exilic/diaspora phenomenon. When it was just some people living in a place, doing their thing, there was no need to name it. When they're living in other places and still doing their thing, setting them apart from the rest of the population, then it makes sense to want to name it.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
According to historians, Moses never described himself or said he was part of "Judaism". Historians also add that the word Judaism came from the enemies of Jews. They said that this "religion" is the religion of Juda's son.

So what?

Jesus never gave any name to the religion he had started. And from what I have read in the gospels, not once Jesus did call his followers "Christians".

It was a nameless religion during Jesus' ministry in galilee and Judaea.

Apparently, word "Christian", didn't crop up till the followers in Antioch church called themselves "Christians", in Acts.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
So what?

Jesus never gave any name to the religion he had started. And from what I have read in the gospels, not once Jesus did call his followers "Christians".

It was a nameless religion during Jesus' ministry in galilee and Judaea.

Apparently, word "Christian", didn't crop up till the followers in Antioch church called themselves "Christians", in Acts.
Well, it was Judaism as far as Jesus and his immediate followers were concerned. Then for a while they were Nazarene Jews. It was the latter part of the 1st century before they started to distance themselves from their Jewish roots and think of themselves as a separate religion, taking on the Christian label. And it changed a lot during that time too, as people with no Jewish background at all came in and reinterpreted things to mean stuff that the original authors wouldn't have imagined. Hence the very wide rift between the two today (or at least that's one of several reasons).

And Christian is a very Greek word. It's a sign of the cultural shift. Jesus would never have come up with that word even if he had meant to start a separatist movement.

So I guess Christianity doesn't exist, huh? ;)
 

pro4life

Member
So what?

Jesus never gave any name to the religion he had started. And from what I have read in the gospels, not once Jesus did call his followers "Christians".

It was a nameless religion during Jesus' ministry in galilee and Judaea.

Apparently, word "Christian", didn't crop up till the followers in Antioch church called themselves "Christians", in Acts.

So if Moses was to be alive today and ask him what is your religion what would be his answer?
 

pro4life

Member
Go to your nearest university and ask a professor of history about this. You will find that the Bible and the Quran are not regarded as historical texts or primary sources. They are evidence of a mythic tradition, not of the contents of that tradition. Put another way, they are evidence that people at the time of writing had stories about Moses, not evidence of any details of Moses's life. As for the Bible and the Torah, those are the same thing in this context, not two different works. And the Quran was written after, using the Bible as a source. That's not evidence of anything in particular.

There are plenty of primary source documents about the life and career of George Washington. We don't have to rely on later stories about him that come from oral tradition. We can also visit his house, look at his possessions, see portraits that were painted of him while he lived, read things he himself wrote in his own hand. It would take a conspiracy of supernatural proportions to fake the life of George Washington. Moses, on the other hand, is a character in an oral tradition that later was written down, the same as Aeneas, Cadmus, Heracles, et al. There are plenty of pieces of literature detailing the lives and accomplishments of those characters too.

Do you therefore accept that Aeneas was the son of the goddess Venus and that Jupiter, the king of gods and men, sent him to found a colony in Italy that would one day give birth to Rome? Do you accept that Cadmus traveled from Tyre to Boeotia in search of his sister Europa, whom the god Zeus had abducted, and there founded the city of Thebes after slaying a dragon? Do you accept the many feats of Heracles, son of Zeus, and recognize as legitimate the claims of many ancient Greek kings, that they were descended from him? In fact Heracles is much better attested than Moses, all things considered. But he's still a mythic figure. History is all about standards of evidence, and none of these guys meets them.

Of course you are going to be prejudice on religious book because you are obviously an Atheist.
Anyhow, all religious books, manuscripts and scrolls can be used to extract historical witnesses. Archaeologists for example use Egyptian Hieroglyphics to reason how the early Egyptians lived in the past. Some of the Hieroglyphics were actually religious records.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Anyhow, all religious books, manuscripts and scrolls can be used to extract historical witnesses.

What is really funny here is that not one credible scholar uses the koran for any aspect of historicity regarding Moses or Jesus.

So the koran is in no part credible, in any aspect of moses, despite your biased claim.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So if Moses was to be alive today and ask him what is your religion what would be his answer?
There were no name or label for his religion.

Many religions around the ancient world that have been started by its founders, had no name for their religions.

So putting in Moses in the modern world, would have no meaning to him, because he never use the word Judaism, in his time...that if actually existed at all. However, Judaism does have its root, in the Written Torah and Oral Torah that was started by its cultural or traditional hero - Moses.

Jesus, never called his new religion "Christianity", nor call anyone who followed him while he was alive and preaching - "Christians". However, Christianity does have its root to Jesus and his teachings. Like I said before, no one called themselves Christians until a decade or so later after Jesus' death and supposed resurrection, in the church established at Antioch.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Of course you are going to be prejudice on religious book because you are obviously an Atheist.
Anyhow, all religious books, manuscripts and scrolls can be used to extract historical witnesses. Archaeologists for example use Egyptian Hieroglyphics to reason how the early Egyptians lived in the past. Some of the Hieroglyphics were actually religious records.
Actually, what I am is an academic who works with ancient texts and who has multiple colleagues who are archaeologists. I'm not saying you have to take my word for things because of that (by all means, look it up yourself and ask other professionals), but I will say that I have some idea about how this stuff works. And what you are describing is not how it works.

I haven't said anything that's considered remotely controversial in an academic context.

And I happen to be very fond of studying religious texts. I just happen to not do so uncritically. I also happen to be religious, but that really doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand. (In fact I was just at church with my favorite archaeologist.) :hearteyes:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Then for a while they were Nazarene Jews

What many people do not realize is that is not how they self identified. All we know is some later groups called them that. As far as we know it was a sect of Hellenized Christians that coined that name.


So little is known about this group, I usually don't debate any aspect other then its lack of historicity to give any sort of credible definition..


It was the latter part of the 1st century before they started to distance themselves from their Jewish roots and think of themselves as a separate religion

We have early traditions of this group and anti Semitism. There were cultural divisions in play here as the movement grew in the Diaspora.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
What many people do not realize is that is not how they self identified. All we know is some later groups called them that. As far as we know it was a sect of Hellenized Christians that coined that name.
It's obviously an exonym, in the sense that it's not something the group would have called themselves, but may have been used by other Jews. Something like "those Jews who follow that Nazarene fellow," tone-wise.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It's obviously an exonym, in the sense that it's not something the group would have called themselves, but may have been used by other Jews. Something like "those Jews who follow that Nazarene fellow," tone-wise.

Thank you well explained.

I had to look up the 64 dollar word ;) I hope I can retain it.
 
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