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Where Did these Beliefs Come From?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
Well, the oldest Sana's Quran parchments were dated before some mythical Mohammad set up shop supposedly in Mecca, and referred to the Jewish prophets. The current Quran, which does not match previous Qurans, was canonized for for the whole of Islam in 1985, despite the fact their are at least 36 differing Qurans being sold in the Arab world. The Arab conflict started in what is now known as northern Iraq, and there were several historical figures that were referred to as Mohammad, which is an adjective, which means "blessed one"/"praised one", and they were all from the north, and were involved with fighting the Persians after the Byzantines and those from today's Turkey had beaten down Persia, and the Parthians had stabbed the ruling party of Persia in the back. It was at the beginning of the 1st year of the Arab calendar, around the 620s, that the Sadducee Jews from Persia took over Jerusalem. As for the book of Mormon, it is basically a supposed history of the Jews who had fled Jerusalem to come to the Americas. No real meat and potatoes to be found.
As someone who was raised in a Roman Catholic Church environment, who took Catechism, it does not state "he is not Mary". For obvious reasons. If you went into my Catholic Church, you would find old women kneeling before Mary and lighting candles. She even has her own prayer, which is probably the most used prayer in the Catholic Church. The prayer is for the dead Mary to pray for the forgiveness of your sins. Kind of like one dead person praying for another. This is in fact praying to the dead, for in spite of what some Pope declares, she still resides in a grave. There was also a statue of Joseph, with candles, but I didn't notice to many people praying to the dead Joseph, who was apparently not even the father in question.
I am certainly not standing on the side of the Protestants, who are just another daughter of Babylon (Rev 13), or as stated by Martin Luther, another whore of Babylon. As for the Mormons, they have enough of their own internal squabbles. If you want to see a line up of idols, go to Independence Missouri, and get a view of at least 3 different Mormon sects within a stone throw of each other.
What ever you have been taught in school, probably is no longer applicable. The Sphinx has now been dated to be around 10,500 years old. The stone altars in northern Arabia have been dated to at least 7000 years old. DNA puts early South American peoples coming from the Middle East area, most likely from ships, which somewhat aligns with the Mormon story, except they lived in the Peru area, and elongated the skulls of their children, which can be traced to uses in Asia, but not to Jews.
As for the book of Revelation, if you are going to quote it, it might be nice to be more familiar with the whole text. This is a forum, the least you can do is reasonably support your own point of view.
It depends on the message. The message of Yeshua was you have the right to choose good from evil, and that the evil would deceive those who dwell on the earth. (Matthew 13 & Relation 13). It shows that the "many" will go the path to destruction (Matthew 7). Follow the lemmings, and wind up going off the edge of the cliff. Yeshua described how and when and by whom everyone would be deceived, yet the lemmings still choose to jump of the cliff. Yeshua provided a light, yet those of the darkness continue to choose darkness. (John 3:19-21). Look to the Law and the prophets.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Adam is simply the Hebrew or Semitic term for 'man'. If Abraham did not speak Hebrew probably another Semitic language. I think to judge something corrupt, especially because it may not be identical with the original is to ignore the reasons for the new. Clearly the reason for the LXX was due to the lack of spoken Hebrew, but was the LXX simply an exact copy of the original Hebrew or was there a re-reading. Same with the Masoretic text, an exact copy of the original Hebrew or a re-reading in light of contemporary knowledge or revelation. If it is not a translation, how can it be considered corrupt? How major are the differences, of what importance? The Roman Catholic Church uses the Masoretic, the Orthodox Church uses the LXX. How significant are the differences?
Why do you think so many bibles are revised from time to time? As for the purpose Catholic revision among others takes into account the discovery of new and better ancient manuscripts so that the best possible textual tradition is followed. important manuscripts from Cave 4 of Qumran, as well as the most useful recensions of the Septuagint, have been consulted in the preparation of 1 and 2 Samuel. Fragments of the lost Book of Tobit in Aramaic and in Hebrew, recovered from Cave 4 of Qumran, are in substantial agreement with the Sinaiticus Greek recension used for the translation of this book. The lost original Hebrew text of 1 Maccabees is replaced by its oldest extant form in Greek. Judith, 2 Maccabees, and parts of Esther are also translated from the Greek.
Holy Scripture is a 'living' reality, for the life of the living.
Gen
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed, he shall watch against thy head, and thou shalt watch against his heel. Masoretic text
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. LXX
Num
24:17 I will point to him, but not now; I bless him, but he draws not near: a star shall rise out of Jacob, a man shall spring out of Israel; and shall crush the princes of Moab, and shall spoil all the sons of Seth.
Masoretic
24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
LXX
Is
7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.
Septuagint
7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Masoretic
Isaiah Chapter 7
The Septuagint Bible Online
First off, the message or theme, is concise. (It’s about the vindication of God’s sovereignty, and the restoring of mankind back to perfection & back into God’s universal family of sons and daughters, through the Messiah.) The entire book, however, is over 1500 pages! So, people coming up with different ideas about it, isn’t a surprise...
In fact, it’s written in that way, as it says in Hebrews 4:12, to reveal what’s in peoples’ hearts.
Let me ask you this: choosing either loving or hateful, how does the Bible say Christians should act toward themselves and others?
I think you know the answer.
So, it’s not a failure, is it? The problem is, very few really apply it in their lives. That’s their failure, not the Bible’s.
Another example: how about the way husbands should treat their wives, and vice versa? Should their intimate sexual relations be shared with others? How is fornication viewed?
I think you know know the answers to all these, also.
Now, how many do you think apply and live it?
Luke 10:21 tells us that God (Jesus’ Father) is the One who reveals His Word. (Or, He can even hide it.)
But if ones like those mentioned above aren’t obedient to Him... do you think He’ll reveal His Word to them? (To me, that makes no sense.) Or only to those who listen?
Cf. John 13:34-35....notice that Jesus didn’t say, “certain beliefs” would identify his followers; rather, it would be by how they act: their ‘love among themselves’, and even their “enemy.” Matthew 5:44.
Even Jesus would deny “many”. Matthew 7:21-23.
1 John 3:10-15
Take care.
You really need to inquire what Luther believed concerning Mary. Except for his opposition to intercessory prayer he remained faithful to Marian dogmas.
Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).Who possess a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).
Martin Luther on Mary - Sermon Index
You confuse personal piety with official teaching concerning Mary.
You seem to have missed the point. The reformed church, supposedly started by the help of Luther, is just another daughter of Babylon, or whore of Babylon, imaged after the Pagan Trinity model, who worshipped the sun god (Sol Invictus), as in their keeping the sun god's holy day, the day of the sun, Sunday, the god of Constantine, per Constantine's degree of 7 March, 321 AD. Both sects being the followers of the false prophet Paul, and the worthless shepherd Peter (Zechariah 11:17) in the pursuit of "lawlessness" and stumbling blocks, as with the "tares" of Matthew 13:39-42. Luther was simply a beer drinking, food stuffing, woman (Katharina) chasing (marrying) guy who turned against the lowly serfs in favor of the German princes. Exemplifying "eat drink and get married" at the end of the age (day of the son of man) (Matthew 24:37-38). Although in his defense, it was the German princes who saved him from the Inquisition (trial by fire) of the Catholic Church.
As for your "personal piety", pursued by the followers of idolatry (Revelation 9:20-21), apparently some will survive the breaking of the 6th seal of destruction (Revelation 7), but will apparently look forward to the opening of the 7th seal of God (Rev 8
.The Nicene Creed teaches there are three gods in one, and that the "virgin" Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, and that "Jesus" was "eternally begotten" by the Father. On the other hand "in the beginning was the Word" translates that there was a beginning, the alpha (John 1). Mary had other sons, and therefore was not a "virgin", and unlike what the Nicene Creed says, Yeshua did not rise on the 3rd day. According to Yeshua, he would fulfill the act of Jonah, and return after 3 days and 3 nights. The "on the third day" refers to Hosea 6:2, and is with respect to "Ephraim"/Israel, and "Judah", and is in reference to after 2000 years after "I will go away" (Hosea 5:14), and them being healed, a time we are approaching.
As for the NT, it mostly contains the babel of the false prophet Paul and his compatriots. Yeshua taught he was to fulfill the "law and the prophets", which has not been fulfilled at this time, and that until there was no heaven or earth, not one jot of the OT would be put away (Matthew 5:16-18). This in opposition to the false gospel of Paul, which parallels the "old" is obsolete and done away with (Hebrews), or in Paul's words, nailed to the cross.
excerpt from Nicene Creed:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial
of one Being with the Father.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Can't you see the contradiction above? What you're missing is the utilization of the concept of "essence" that can tie the two together.
Essence - Wikipedia
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Veneration" is simply not the same as "idolatry" no matter how many times you may repeat it, and the Revelation citation says "idols". A great many of us venerate the Bible, for example, but we don't use it as an idol.
Well, I quite can't agree. The NT is a composite of the "tare seed" and the "good seed" (Matthew 13), but many people revere/venerate/worship it, and nail the testimony of Yeshua (good seed), to a pagan image of a cross, which is generally made of gold, silver, wood, stone, etc., much like the idols of Revelation 9. The idols/graven images of "Mary" seem to be more of a manufactured stone, such as porcelain, but much as in the book 1984, simply changing the words and presto, you are saved from destruction. I wouldn't count on it. The Muslims worship the man and the book (Quran), whereas the "man" is a historical fabrication of several historical characters, none from Mecca, and the oldest copy of the book dates previous to the time of the man, and the dated portion is Jewish/Abrahamic in character. The same is with "Christianity". It is based on a book, edited by a daughter of Babylon, the Roman Catholic church, and worships (contrary to the 1st commandment) the "son of man" as if he were a god, and based their foundational teachings on a false prophet, Paul, and a "worthless shepherd" , Peter (Zechariah 11). I think we will have to disagree as to what is true and what is not.
The 'book' is based on the lived Christianity, you have it backwards.
Yeshua was a Jew, and lived as a Jew, as did his apostles. The false gospel of the cross, did not get pushed until the writings of the false prophet Paul, which was much later. Paul's Gentile sect pushed out the Nazarenes, the followers of Yeshua, and as with Constantine burning the writings of Arius, the Roman Catholic Inquisition also burned the writings and bodies of anyone who disagreed with their point of view and position of power. What you have is the "field"/book (Matthew 13), which is composed of the seed of the devil, the tare seed, and the good seed, the testimony of Yeshua, which according to Paul, has been nailed to a cross.
As for living in the Word of God, the Law and the prophets, along side the testimony of Yeshua, if the Christians had anyone who had the ear of God, such as not being sinners (John 9:31), they could simply pray for their healing (James 5:15-16). That doesn't work for Christians, and they now pray to their government to pay for their health care. As it is, the pope, the leader of the church, tried to cast out demons, and failed, and now calls for universal health care, as well as open borders, from a position of his country, Vatican city, having one of the foremost wall systems in the world. The pope calls for taking care of the poor, yet the Vatican owns high end property, approximately the size of Alberta Canada, and keeps the gates of Vatican city closed to a free flow of immigrants.
The only Catholic person I know who is named pearl, is extremely wealthy, with a street named after her, and she should be in her 90s at this time. She is the only one I know with that name. A nice person, but a Catholic still. She has lived in the dark, and should take any opportunity to open up to the light.
By the time Paul wrote there existed a believing, worshiping community of Christians who included hymns in their praise for Jesus. Many scholars believe that these passages may have been hymns about Christ already used by the early Church. And Pliny's letter describing Christian behavior;
But they declared that the sum of their guilt or their error only amounted to this, that on a stated day they had been accustomed to meet before daybreak and to recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god, and that so far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, their oath was to abstain from theft, robbery, adultery, and from breach of faith, and not to deny trust money placed in their keeping when called upon to deliver it. When this ceremony was concluded, it had been their custom to depart and meet again to take food, but it was of no special character and quite harmless,
First there were the churches founded by the Apostles, and only after them was the formation of a Gospel.
Chronologically, Romans 16 provides the earliest glimpse at the character of the churches in the city of Rome before Paul arrived. Christianity came to Rome through the synagogues. It seems likely that Jews who heard the gospel while in Jerusalem at Pentecost returned to Rome and continued to fellowship in synagogues until at least A.D. 49, when Claudius “expelled the Jews.” Paul wrote Romans in the second half of the 50’s to already existing congregations which have separated from the synagogues or were formed outside of the synagogues of Rome.
Evidence for the church developing out of the synagogue is found in Romans 16. Aquila and Priscilla are Jewish, as well as Andronicus, Junian and Herodion who are identified as Jewish (7, 11), the names Mary and Aristobolus may also indicate a Jewish origin.
As for the rest of your post, I think you have taken a trip to never, never land.
Romans was assumed to have been written by the false prophet Paul. Not a good foundation to work from. As for Rome, the strife caused by the bad interaction between the followers of Peter and Paul, caused Peter's followers to be expelled from the city, and as Herod had become low in the eyes of Nero, who was Paul's key into the city, Paul was killed by Nero. That was a political killing. Nero thought Herod was involved in undermining his rule. As for Paul and Jerusalem, Paul was run out of town, and it required around 470 Roman soldiers to save his over weight, bald headed carcass. As for your "Herodion my kinsman", Paul was related to the family of Herod, which gave rise to him going around and stoning "Christians", an act which could only be condoned under edict by the Romans. When the high Jewish priest wanted to kill Yeshua, they needed the okay from the Romans.
As for churches, the disciples went two by two to spread the message of the kingdom of God by healing, and raising people from the dead. They went from town to town and stayed in the houses of the dwellers of the towns. If they preached at the synagogues, they went on the Sabbath, during the day, when the Jews were present. The Roman church of today cannot heal themselves much less anyone else. As for your reliance on church historians, one is to rely on the testimony of Yeshua, the good seed, not the seed of the devil, the tare seed. The tare seed leads to death and destruction (Matthew 13:30).
There were gathering, worshiping Christians prior to the written word.
Which is found in the Gospels collected and canonized by the Church.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Both of those are falsehoods as Catholics are forbidden by Canon Law to worship any object and Muslims can only worship Allah ["God" in English].
Lying in the name of "Yeshua"-- just how pathetic is that.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Oh really? Well then, why did Peter and the other Apostles have anything to do with Paul if he supposedly was a "false prophet"?
Also, if not from the Bible, where are you getting your "information" from?