Where do you draw the line?

[Webbster101]

That makes no sense. It seems to me that you're saying that if I claim that if I can see the dead bodies that result from an earthquake, and use this fact to conclude that God didn't save them, I'm "limiting God"?
I am saying that if God rectifies a situation, then we wouldn't be able to see it unrectified, yes. But I don't think this limits God.

Yes, you are limiting God because you expect him to do something when you want it done but like I said earlier God works on his time not ours. I invite you to look into the old testament and see some of the works that he did during that time, it might help you understand where I am coming from.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The thing is God has given us a list if laws (the Ten Commandments in Exodus) that we are to follow in order to gain eternal life. I invite you to look at it and please read it in the cintext of the story.

I don't see how this is relevant to what we were talking about.

If the Ten Commandments are good, then their goodness flows from higher standard... which is the thing I'm talking about when I say "God's standard". If the Ten Commandments aren't good, then it's unjust to use them as the criteria for eternal life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, you are limiting God because you expect him to do something when you want it done but like I said earlier God works on his time not ours.

How is this excuse morally better than when a paramedic fails to help an injured person and justifies it with "I was on a break"?

This gets back to what I was talking about before: what you suggest re-jiggs things so that what appears to be objectively, horrible wrong is re-defined as actually perfectly good.

I think that it's morally wrong for a person to stand by and watch as someone else needlessly dies without stepping in to help. Isn't God more morally good than any person?

OTOH, if I'm wrong and it's actually perfectly good to sit by and do nothing as a person dies (because the person capable of saving him "works on his time, not ours", for instance), then how can I trust my moral sense on any other matter at all? Apparently, it can come to the complete opposite of the proper conclusion. If I can mistake the perfectly good for the the horribly evil, then how can I properly judge morality at all?

I invite you to look into the old testament and see some of the works that he did during that time, it might help you understand where I am coming from.

IMO, the Old Testament does not support the argument that God is perfectly good.

 

[waitasec]

It's back to the old Problem of Evil/Suffering. There are only two possibilities:

- God doesn't want to do it.
- God can't do it.

Either answer presents problems.

There is a problem here because you are limiting how you expect God to act, this is like me saying to my parents " if I dont get what I want for christmas than I hate you" really it means we are trying to say how things have to happen.

Last time I checked the Bible God does his work on his time and to his standards not to ours.

emphasis by moi

how? remember, you are the one asking where the line should be drawn

i would add a 3rd possibility;
god is not concerned...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

After a bit more thought, I just wanted to come back to this...

I invite you to look into the old testament and see some of the works that he did during that time, it might help you understand where I am coming from.

Are you talking about the same Old Testament where God apparently shows no reluctance whatsoever to:

- send angels swooping in to save Isaac from mistakenly being sacrificed by Abraham?
- save the Israelites from their pursuers by actually parting a sea and then miraculously killing them?
- protect Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego so that they emerged from a "fiery furnace" completely unscathed?
- repeatedly sent angels to warn people of impending trouble?
- repeatedly protected the righteous from their enemies in battle?
- repeatedly raised the dead and cured the sick?

If so, then I'd say that the answer to your question in the OP, "where should we draw the line?", is simple: we should draw it right where God put it in the first place. And if the Old Testament is any guide, it tells us that God won't hesitate to directly intervene to protect us and save us in all sorts of trouble.

 

[waitasec]

After a bit more thought, I just wanted to come back to this...


Are you talking about the same Old Testament where God apparently shows no reluctance whatsoever to:

- send angels swooping in to save Isaac from mistakenly being sacrificed by Abraham?
- save the Israelites from their pursuers by actually parting a sea and then miraculously killing them?
- protect Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego so that they emerged from a "fiery furnace" completely unscathed?
- repeatedly sent angels to warn people of impending trouble?
- repeatedly protected the righteous from their enemies in battle?
- repeatedly raised the dead and cured the sick?

If so, then I'd say that the answer to your question in the OP, "where should we draw the line?", is simple: we should draw it right where God put it in the first place. And if the Old Testament is any guide, it tells us that God won't hesitate to directly intervene to protect us and save us in all sorts of trouble.

:bow:
excellent point...

 

[Thesavorofpan]

I have read through many forums that say "where was god when....?" but where can we as humans say where the line should be drawn between what should happen in the world and what we want to happen?

I don't know maybe it is just me but we as humans all want the world to revolve around us and have a hard time when our wants and desires are not "allowed"?

How do we measure this?

The real question is:

Why do Christians think that this God is perfect, when he has very human-like qaulities?

 

[outhouse]

Why do Christians think that this God is perfect

they read in between the lines and pick which scripture suits them in my opinion

how they think this is beyond me, if one believes the bible then god is guilt of crimes against humanity more then the worst man to ever live has.

when he has very human-like qaulities?

well thats because in my opinion the bible was written by man for man, and its obvious.

 

[jmvizanko]

People use it as a way to tell people why they don't believe in God. They don't really seem to want an answer to the question from we believers (if they do, I have missed somehow). In a way, I can understand where they are coming from as I had asked all those questions myself before I believed.

Flat out wrong, as well as arrogant. You have it backwards. This is a good reason not to believe a god exists, not something we use as an "excuse" or whatever offensive crap you are trying to imply.

I for one like to be proven wrong. But you should not equate your inability to explain to us an answer that makes sense with you actually having an answer that makes sense that we are just unwilling to listen to. If you have the million dollar answer, then lets hear it. Otherwise stop claiming its an unbeliever stubborness and listening problem.

 

[Willamena]

I have read through many forums that say "where was god when....?" but where can we as humans say where the line should be drawn between what should happen in the world and what we want to happen?

I don't know maybe it is just me but we as humans all want the world to revolve around us and have a hard time when our wants and desires are not "allowed"?

How do we measure this?

The line is drawn where we define "god", ourselves, and "where" and "when." (And, for those who enjoy the humour of triple-entendre, where we define "is".) Our image of "God" (and ourselves, and the world) is constructed from information, and in turn informs conclusions about that information.

 

[Thief]

So all of this is about God interacting with this world?...and Man?

Lines drawn....there are so many....

How about...
The earth and all of it's chemistry, has been churning from the day it was formed.
We live because of it.
We die because of it.
Can you really 'expect' anything else?
If you stand where the tidal wave will soon be.....

As for Man....and God...
There is some indication of intervention...see Chapter Two of Genesis.

The prophets also intervene.
I wish culture didn't get in the way.

As for action at hand...
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[Webbster101]

So all of this is about God interacting with this world?...and Man?

Lines drawn....there are so many....

How about...
The earth and all of it's chemistry, has been churning from the day it was formed.
We live because of it.
We die because of it.
Can you really 'expect' anything else?
If you stand where the tidal wave will soon be.....

As for Man....and God...
There is some indication of intervention...see Chapter Two of Genesis.

The prophets also intervene.
I wish culture didn't get in the way.

As for action at hand...
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

You make a good point but I think my over all question I was trying to get at without specifically asking it is; Where do we get our morality, and how do we know that it is the right morality?

Some people out there may say that they are the ultimate source of morality while others, like me, say that we get our morality from God as handed down through the prophets.

 

[Thief]

You make a good point but I think my over all question I was trying to get at without specifically asking it is; Where do we get our morality, and how do we know that it is the right morality?

Some people out there may say that they are the ultimate source of morality while others, like me, say that we get our morality from God as handed down through the prophets.

Well it does seem....
Some people are 'naturally' good and all they touch, gets better.
Others fumble every deed and word.

Most of us have good intention.
Most of us succeed in the effort...some don't.

And then, there are the few....as if intent on making everyone else miserable...
they go out of their way to cause harm...to cause their fellowman to circumvent.

Law can be social and have the same appearance as spiritual law.
I suppose you could ask your fellowman what motivates him.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have read through many forums that say "where was god when....?" but where can we as humans say where the line should be drawn between what should happen in the world and what we want to happen?

I don't know maybe it is just me but we as humans all want the world to revolve around us and have a hard time when our wants and desires are not "allowed"?

How do we measure this?

By the simple acknowledgement of our limits as to what we can and cannot do. Although no longer a theist, I still find this portion of the Serenity Prayer valid and very well said.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]....to accept the things I cannot change; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]courage to change the things I can;[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]and wisdom to know the difference. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Living one day at a time; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Enjoying one moment at a time; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; .....[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]-Reinhold Niebuhr-[/FONT]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You make a good point but I think my over all question I was trying to get at without specifically asking it is; Where do we get our morality, and how do we know that it is the right morality?

Some people out there may say that they are the ultimate source of morality while others, like me, say that we get our morality from God as handed down through the prophets.

How does that work, exactly?

You're not the first person I've heard to put forward the idea of divine command morality, and I can see how God, if he exists, could declare some things good and other things bad, but what makes God's declarations authoritative?

I mean, I can see how it'd be against one's own self-interest to go against God if he'll throw you in Hell if you do, but this would be true whether or not God was good or evil. So what actually makes the morality handed down by God morality and not just an arbitrary set of restrictions?