Where does the NWT Bible Falsify?

[Desert Snake]

Why would you say above, "Perhaps we can say Jesus's name, here, it's more apt." What is more apt and why?

Matthew 1:22-24

Those verses say the Messiahs name will be Immanuel, are you saying those verses are wrong?

You just argued earlier that the names are just general descriptions, so, obviously we would be talking about just one specific name of the Messiah.

 

[Deeje]

There is only 'One Lord' of Believers. This is said quite plainly in more than one verse. I don't know where you are getting all of these 'lord' interpretations, do you just guess at what it means, unless it is specified?
1 Corinthians 1:10
'Lord of us Jesus Christ...'
1 Corinthians 15:29
'Lord of us, christ of him...'
2 Corinthians 6:18
'Lord Almighty...'

The Bible clearly says that there is only One Lord of Believers.

Why are you so hung up on the title "Lord" as if it can apply only to God? That title applies to a lot of different people.

"The Greek and Hebrew words rendered “lord” (or such related terms as “sir,” “owner,” “master”) are used with reference to Jehovah God (Eze 3:11), Jesus Christ (Mt 7:21), one of the elders seen by John in vision (Re 7:13, 14), angels (Ge 19:1, 2; Da 12:8), men (1Sa 25:24; Ac 16:16, 19, 30), and false deities (1Co 8:5). Often the designation “lord” denotes one who has ownership or authority and power over persons or things. (Ge 24:9; 42:30; 45:8, 9; 1Ki 16:24; Lu 19:33; Ac 25:26; Eph 6:5) This title was applied by Sarah to her husband (Ge 18:12), by children to their fathers (Ge 31:35; Mt 21:28, 29), and by a younger brother to his older brother (Ge 32:5, 6). It appears as a title of respect addressed to prominent persons, public officials, prophets, and kings. (Ge 23:6; 42:10; Nu 11:28; 2Sa 1:10; 2Ki 8:10-12; Mt 27:63) When used in addressing strangers, “lord,” or “sir,” served as a title of courtesy.—Joh 12:21; 20:15; Ac 16:30."

Lord — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

See that little word "AND"? It means "in addition to"....so there is "one God the Father, AND there is one Lord Jesus Christ" who is "Lord" but NOT God. It doesn't say that there is "one God the Father who is the Lord Jesus Christ"....does it?

The scripture in 2 Corinthians 6:18 that you cited...
"and I will be a father to you and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”

When did Jesus ever say that he would be a "father" to anyone? The only "Father" is God...these are the words of God, not Jesus, who only ever called his disciples, his "brothers" (Matthew 25:40)....never did refer to them as his "sons and daughters". Can you see the flaw in your argument?

 

[YoursTrue]

We should figure out which 'god' you're talking about. Your methodology of reading Scripture wouldn't make that specific.

Let me keep this as simple as possible. Whose voice do you think was heard from heaven when Jesus was baptized?

 

[Desert Snake]

Why are you so hung up on the title "Lord" as if it can apply only to God? That title applies to a lot of different people.

"The Greek and Hebrew words rendered “lord” (or such related terms as “sir,” “owner,” “master”) are used with reference to Jehovah God (Eze 3:11), Jesus Christ (Mt 7:21), one of the elders seen by John in vision (Re 7:13, 14), angels (Ge 19:1, 2; Da 12:8), men (1Sa 25:24; Ac 16:16, 19, 30), and false deities (1Co 8:5). Often the designation “lord” denotes one who has ownership or authority and power over persons or things. (Ge 24:9; 42:30; 45:8, 9; 1Ki 16:24; Lu 19:33; Ac 25:26; Eph 6:5) This title was applied by Sarah to her husband (Ge 18:12), by children to their fathers (Ge 31:35; Mt 21:28, 29), and by a younger brother to his older brother (Ge 32:5, 6). It appears as a title of respect addressed to prominent persons, public officials, prophets, and kings. (Ge 23:6; 42:10; Nu 11:28; 2Sa 1:10; 2Ki 8:10-12; Mt 27:63) When used in addressing strangers, “lord,” or “sir,” served as a title of courtesy.—Joh 12:21; 20:15; Ac 16:30."

Lord — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

See that little word "AND"? It means "in addition to"....so there is "one God the Father, AND there is one Lord Jesus Christ" who is "Lord" but NOT God. It doesn't say that there is "one God the Father who is the Lord Jesus Christ"....does it?

The scripture in 2 Corinthians 6:18 that you cited...
"and I will be a father to you and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”

When did Jesus ever say that he would be a "father" to anyone? The only "Father" is God...these are the words of God, not Jesus, who only ever called his disciples, his "brothers" (Matthew 25:40)....never did refer to them as his "sons and daughters". Can you see the flaw in your argument?

I use [specific] Deific names that are found in the Old Testament; 'lord' is a translation, used in English Bibles.

Ironically it's you who is using 'Lord' and 'god' in a vague manner, since you don't ascribe inherent meaning to the words.

 

[YoursTrue]

Matthew 1:22-24

Those verses say the Messiahs name will be Immanuel, are you saying those verses are wrong?

You just argued earlier that the names are just general descriptions, so, obviously we would be talking about just one specific name of the Messiah.

I am saying that Immanuel is a Hebrew word used in showing that God was supporting the Israelites. If you would like more information about this, I'll get it for you.

 

[YoursTrue]

I use [specific] Deific names that are found in the Old Testament; 'lord' is a translation, used in English Bibles.

Ironically it's you who is using 'Lord' and 'god' in a vague manner, since you don't ascribe inherent meaning to the words.

Ok what is the word in Hebrew or Greek that Lord is translated from?

 

[Desert Snake]

Let me keep this as simple as possible. Whose voice do you think was heard from heaven when Jesus was baptized?

You need to explain which g-d is being talked about in
John 5:37
&
John 1:18

 

[Deeje]

I use [specific] Deific names that are found in the Old Testament; 'lord' is a translation, used in English Bibles.

Ironically it's you who is using 'Lord' and 'god' in a vague manner, since you don't ascribe inherent meaning to the words.

All I am hearing is "but...but....but"...when things have been explained as clearly as the scriptures themselves tell it.

How many scriptures were in that excerpt that I quoted...did you look up any of them, even from the OT? If not, why not? They are self explanatory.

You either read what the Bible says, or you make up your own version of things...which is it?

Incidentally.....can you tell me why a person following 'Jewish mysticism' is apparently promoting the trinity?
I am confused....

You need to explain which g-d is being talked about in
John 5:37

In context it is very obvious....

John 5:30-38...this is Jesus speaking...
"I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

31 “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the witness he bears about me is true. 33 You have sent men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 That man was a burning and shining lamp, and for a short time you were willing to rejoice greatly in his light. 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent."

Jehovah is the second witness required under God's law to confirm a matter.

You can't pluck a verse out of thin air and expect to get the true sense of it.

&
John 1:18

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

John 1:18 is a favorite of mine.....because it undoes John 1:1 as a trinity proof text. If no man has seen God then Jesus can't be God.....but he is rightly described as "theos" in Greek because they were polytheistic and all their "gods" were distinguished by name. Collectively they were just called "the gods". Since the one God of the Jews had lost his name because of a Jewish superstition about pronouncing it, it was difficult to distinguish this "divine mighty one" from other divine mighty ones, like Jesus.

Jesus explained it this way when the Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy....
John 10:31-36....
"Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

Here was an ideal opportunity for Jesus to identify himself as God since the Jews were accusing him of blasphemy anyway.....yet what did he say? He said that human judges in Israel were called "gods" because of their divine authority. Jesus had divine authority too and is rightly called "a god" in that sense......but the Greeks used the definite article when identifying Jehovah....he was not just "theos"....but "ho theos" as is demonstrated in John 1:1 in the Greek. Not a god...but THE God. All Jesus said was that he was "God's son".

It is apparent that you need to increase your Bible knowledge if you want to argue scripture....May I ask where or from whom you get your beliefs?

 

[Desert Snake]

Incidentally.....can you tell me why a person following 'Jewish mysticism' is apparently promoting the trinity?
I am confused....

Im not 'promoting' anything, Im discussing the Bible.

In context it is very obvious....

John 5:30-38...this is Jesus speaking...
"I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

31 “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the witness he bears about me is true. 33 You have sent men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 That man was a burning and shining lamp, and for a short time you were willing to rejoice greatly in his light. 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent."

Jehovah is the second witness required under God's law to confirm a matter.

You can't pluck a verse out of thin air and expect to get the true sense of it.



"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him."

John 1:18 is a favorite of mine.....because it undoes John 1:1 as a trinity proof text. If no man has seen God then Jesus can't be God.....but he is rightly described as "theos" in Greek because they were polytheistic and all their "gods" were distinguished by name. Collectively they were just called "the gods". Since the one God of the Jews had lost his name because of a Jewish superstition about pronouncing it, it was difficult to distinguish this "divine mighty one" from other divine mighty ones, like Jesus.

Jesus explained it this way when the Jews were wanting to stone him for blasphemy....
John 10:31-36....

Huh? John 5:37
Needs to be explained in a context with other verses
Exodus 3:6
and needs to be explained in your general argument. If the Jews had never even known god, then why would you bring up anything in a 'previous to Jesus', Judaism context? Jesus didn't say they forgot the name of god, He said they had never heard, so forth his father/pater.
John 1:18
John 5:37
•
Speaking of which, my explanations for these are that Jesus is talking to specific people, not "jews or Judahites" generally.

When you generalize these verses, you get a Bible that hardly makes sense.

 

[calm]

Well thank you for all of that......but what does it change?

I wanted to point out to you that there were indeed Christians who believed in the Trinity before the Catholic Church added it to their teachings. So your claim earlier is wrong and I hope you won't pass on such false information again.

 

[Spartan]

I have my own opinion about some things and those who believe themselves superior to me should at least humble themselves before God. There are reasons that I feel what I do, and some of that is because of my experiences before the Christian Pastorate. For me Jesus is not God. He can't be both the Son of God and God too.

I too served in uniform during Vietnam, and have studied the Bible for over 40 years. I was trying to find a way to go to Bible College when my world blew up. Since then I have remained faithful to God, or Allah SWT, while just lots of churches rejected me. And, doing some reading the JW would too.

Go your way in peace Sir, but leave me alone. I'll face a loving God without you.

God is a species, Ellen. So a Son of God is also God. And he was only a "Son" due to his incarnation. Before and after that the scriptures confirm Jesus was, and is, God.

"In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." - Philippians 2

 

[Spartan]

I'm waiting for someone to claim that Christ is Jesus' last name.

Give the JW revisionists time, Ellen, and you'll probably see it from them.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I wanted to point out to you that there were indeed Christians who believed in the Trinity before the Catholic Church added it to their teachings. So your claim earlier is wrong and I hope you won't pass on such false information again.

Provide references, please.

 

[metis]

There doesn't seem to be any single concept about Jesus vis-a-vis God in the 1st century Church that was dominant other than the general belief that he was of God in some way.

The Trinitatrian concept was put together as a consensus of bishops in reaction against "heretical" groups, many of which were using different "scriptures" than the Church had been using, plus some having some very different takes on Jesus' relationship with God.

 

[calm]

Provide references, please.

Justin Martyr:

• • 150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)
  • 150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63.
  • "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity:

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).


170 AD Tatian the Syrian:

• • 170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity:

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

177 AD Athenagoras:

• • 177 AD Athenagoras "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).

"He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things." (Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks. A.D. 200).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God's plan." (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians. A.D. 110).

 

[Spartan]

There doesn't seem to be any single concept about Jesus vis-a-vis God in the 1st century Church that was dominant other than the general belief that he was of God in some way.

The Trinitatrian concept was put together as a consensus of bishops in reaction against "heretical" groups, many of which were using different "scriptures" than the Church had been using, plus some having some very different takes on Jesus' relationship with God.

The entire New Testament is 1st Century, and the deity of Jesus is clearly seen in numerous scriptures. Here's a small sampling:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture

 

[metis]

The entire New Testament is 1st Century, and the deity of Jesus is clearly seen in numerous scriptures. Here's a small sampling:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

The Deity of Jesus Christ in Scripture

How does the above supposedly go against what I posted? What do you think I meant when I said the earliest beliefs appear to be that Jesus was of God?

Jesus is not God the Father, therefore his relationship with the Father cannot be one of being identical with the Father.

Also, he was not omniscient as he stated that he did not know when the end-of-times was as only the Father did. He also asked questions, and I don't mean rhetorical questions.

 

[Desert Snake]

There doesn't seem to be any single concept about Jesus vis-a-vis God in the 1st century Church that was dominant other than the general belief that he was of God in some way.

The Trinitatrian concept was put together as a consensus of bishops in reaction against "heretical" groups, many of which were using different "scriptures" than the Church had been using, plus some having some very different takes on Jesus' relationship with God.

That's an interesting way of saying nothing.

 

[Desert Snake]

How does the above supposedly go against what I posted? What do you think I meant when I said the earliest beliefs appear to be that Jesus was of God?

Jesus is not God the Father, therefore his relationship with the Father cannot be one of being identical with the Father.

Also, he was not omniscient as he stated that he did not know when the end-of-times was as only the Father did. He also asked questions, and I don't mean rhetorical questions.

When Jesus isn't 'God', He is therefore the Tetragrammaton , Yahweh, and the pater is a different God.

When Jesus is God, He is a Manifestation of Yahweh.

Those are the 'only options' that traditionally make sense, and don't contradict Scripture. Though clearly Jesus not being God is an interpretation, which though can be argued, is problematic.

 

[metis]

That's an interesting way of saying nothing.

Then maybe you don't understand it and how and why it got formulated. Here: Trinity - Wikipedia

Also, it's best to look up what "essence" means as that is heavily used within that concept, and you can get information on that here: Essence - Wikipedia