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Where does your faith leave you?

sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
meogi said:
Except we can see atoms. Your analogy falls apart with that.
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No you can't. You see the evidence of bouncing smaller particles off of them. now granted we only see a tree because of the light particles bouncing off of them but we can touch a tree and have first hand experience of it. That is not faith. Seeing the evidence of an atoms existence by indirect means is faith.
 
jewscout

jewscout

Religious Zionist
i believe the Torah and it's mitzvot...

and i will focus on this life and making the best of it...
and what happens after, happens after.
 
jewscout

jewscout

Religious Zionist
sandy whitelinger said:
:) I'm reminded of the comment I heard about a Jewish athiest. It's someone who knows what the God they don't believe in expects of them.
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what does that have to do w/ my choice in coversion?:sarcastic
 
Fade

Fade

The Great Master Bates
sandy whitelinger said:
No you can't. You see the evidence of bouncing smaller particles off of them. now granted we only see a tree because of the light particles bouncing off of them but we can touch a tree and have first hand experience of it. That is not faith. Seeing the evidence of an atoms existence by indirect means is faith.
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You can touch atoms too(whats that tree made of?), so your point is moot anyway.
 
Popeyesays

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
painted wolf said:
you can oberve an atom if you have the equipment.... Particle physicists do it all the time... I've
seen an atom smasher (unfortunatly it was down for repairs, but the guts were really informative) that a friend of mine worked with in college.

if you want to see an image of individual atoms a photo taken with a Transmission Electron Microscope can be found in the Encyclopedia Britanica here: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-48378

you can even observe the paths of traveling atoms with this simple experament:
http://spikesworld.spike-jamie.com/science/atoms/c413-09-oberserving.html

wa:do
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One cannot see the photo unless one is subscribed to Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Regards,
Scott
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
sandy whitelinger said:
No you can't. You see the evidence of bouncing smaller particles off of them. now granted we only see a tree because of the light particles bouncing off of them but we can touch a tree and have first hand experience of it. That is not faith. Seeing the evidence of an atoms existence by indirect means is faith.
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Uh, no. Originally, we "saw" atoms by means of mathematics. It takes no faith whatsoever to work out the equations. It took a genius to figure it out, but the discovery of the atom was the application of mathematics and math theory (theory = discovering relationships between a huge amount of information).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalisable_wavefunction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavefunction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom

No faith needed for this:

HAtomOrbitals.png


Also, it takes no faith to understand that we have harnessed atomic power for nuclear weapons and power facilities.

It takes a minimal amount of research and common sense to figure this out.

Science has come a long way since Einstien, and now we can literally see atoms.

From Wiki "atom"
"Atoms are much smaller than the wavelengths of light that human vision can detect, so atoms cannot be seen in any kind of optical microscope. However, there are ways of detecting the positions of atoms on the surface of a solid or a thin film so as to obtain images. These include: electron microscopes (such as in scanning tunneling microscopy (STM)), atomic force microscopy (AFM), nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) and x-ray microscopy.

Since the electron cloud does not have a sharp cutoff, the size of an atom is not easily defined. For atoms that can form solid crystal lattices, the distance between the centers of adjacent atoms can be easily determined by x-ray diffraction, giving an estimate of the atoms' size. For any atom, one might use the radius at which the electrons of the valence shell are most likely to be found. As an example, the size of a hydrogen atom is estimated to be approximately 1.0586×10−10 m (twice the Bohr radius). Compare this to the size of the proton (the only particle in the nucleus of the hydrogen atom), which is approximately 10−15 m. So the ratio of the size of the hydrogen atom to its nucleus is about 100,000:1. If an atom were the size of a stadium, the nucleus would be the size of a marble. Nearly all the mass of an atom is in its nucleus, yet almost all the space in an atom is filled by its electrons.

Atoms of different elements do vary in size, but the sizes do not scale linearly with the mass of the atom. Their sizes are roughly the same to within a factor of 2. The reason for this is that heavy elements have large positive charge on their nuclei, which strongly attract the electrons to the center of the atom. This contracts the size of the electron shells, so that more electrons fit in the only a slightly greater volume.

The temperature of a collection of atoms is a measure of the average energy of motion of those atoms; at 0 kelvin (absolute zero) atoms would have no motion. As the temperature of the system is increased, the kinetic energy of the particles in the system is increased, and their speed of motion increases. At room temperature, atoms making up gases in the air move at a speed of 500 m/s (about 1100 mph or 1800 km/h)."
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
We can see atoms with one of these bad boys:

180px-Elektronenmikroskop.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_microscope

"
Transmission Electron Microscope (TEM)

The Transmission Electron Microscope (TEM) involves a high voltage electron beam emitted by a cathode and formed by magnetic lenses. The electron beam that has been partially transmitted through the very thin (and so semitransparent for electrons) specimen carries information about the inner structure of the specimen. The spatial variation in this information (the "image") is then magnified by a series of magnetic lenses until it is recorded by hitting a fluorescent screen, photographic plate, or light sensitive sensor such as a CCD (charge-coupled device) camera. The image detected by the CCD may be displayed in real time on a monitor or computer.

Resolution of the high-resolution TEM (HRTEM) is limited by spherical and chromatic aberration, but a new generation of aberration correctors has been able to overcome spherical aberration. Software correction of spherical aberration has allowed the production of images with sufficient resolution to show carbon atoms in diamond separated by only 0.89 ångström (89 picometers) and atoms in silicon at 0.78 ångström (78 picometers) at magnifications of 50 million times. The ability to determine the positions of atoms within materials has made the HRTEM an indispensible tool for nano-technologies research and development in many fields, including heterogeneous catalysis and the development of semiconductor devices for electronics and photonics."
 
Green Gaia

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
My faith leaves me with a hope of a better world to come - but not in the supernatural sense - THIS world will be better because we will make it better.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
First, I don't think that people have to choose between science and God. I could be wrong, but I believe that Konservative Kristians are the only humans on the face of the earth that have an issue between science and religion. One must only choose between a selectively literal interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures and science - there are plenty of other ways to aknowledge the Divine Majesty of the Christian God than to reduce his Holy Writings to a science lesson.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen, and this evidence should not be confused with evidence in the scientific or rationalistic sense, both definitions of the word as being alien to the writer of the canonical work Hebrews. Faith is the hope of something that exists that cannot be discovered by humanity, namely, the Divine.

Faith is believing and hoping in God, and ceases to be hope and faith when we see scientific or logical evidence, which is why there is no such evidence for God, and there is no analogy available for faith.

1 Corinthians 13.13
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Love is the greatest because we won't need any faith and hope when we are in the presence of the Maker.
 
Darkdale

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Maize said:
My faith leaves me with a hope of a better world to come - but not in the supernatural sense - THIS world will be better because we will make it better.
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You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Maize again.

Great post Maize!
 
mingmty

mingmty

Scientist
sandy whitelinger said:
I like the picture of the robot from "Lost in Space."
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I like the picture of the microscope better because is real.

You are forgetting that using the atomic model we can predict chemical reactions and electric conduction precisely, that's a fact and you use it everyday when posting on this site, no faith, just facts. Now, what can you predict with God? I'm not underestimating the notion of God in your mind, but your comparation is meaningless.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
mingmty said:
I like the picture of the microscope better because is real.

You are forgetting that using the atomic model we can predict chemical reactions and electric conduction precisely, that's a fact and you use it everyday when posting on this site, no faith, just facts. Now, what can you predict with God? I'm not underestimating the notion of God in your mind, but your comparation is meaningless.
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I won't deny that. Now for the prediction. There will be wars and rumors of wars. Or, better yet, Jesus will return.
 
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