Where Is Everybody? Where Are The Aliens?

[Subduction Zone]

Didn't we already squash this silly argument a month or two ago?

Is there anything else besides PRATT's on the creationist side? All one runs into are repackaged arguments.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

No, it's you religionists who keep insisting on the power of human authorities.

I see it all the time. People start out assertions with "God says..." and then quote Paul.
Paul never even met Jesus, and everyone knows it. But Christians do it anyway.
Tom

Then we agree, human authority is worth little in establishing scientific truth. And that's very refreshing to hear from someone who believes in e.g. Darwinian evolution- because the human authority argument is usually a major part of it. In fact many debates on that subject never get beyond it. So I would love the rare chance to debate evolution on substance, and make it a rule not to resort to any argument from authority- again on another thread perhaps

 

[Ingledsva]

One of my arguments for evidence of God is aliens or the lack of extraterrestrial life. In other words, the Bible does not state that God created aliens.

Most of us know about Drake's Equation when discussing aliens. Yet, even if we acknowledge that Drake did not make his parameters correct in his equation, there has been enough time for SETI to have made extraterrestrial contact or aliens to have made contact with SETI. If there are intelligent alien civilizations and other planets like earth in the universe, then they would have the power to be able to fly and colonize the universe as we would. They should have been here if they possessed superior technology to ours. This lack of contact by extraterrestrials led Dr. Enrico Fermi to suddenly exclaim, "Where is Everybody?" during a lunch he was having with distinguished scientist colleagues in 1961 after a discussion about ETs.

A Numerical Testbed for Hypotheses of Extraterrestrial Life and Intelligence
[0810.2222] A Numerical Testbed for Hypotheses of Extraterrestrial Life and Intelligence

"Our Galaxy Should Be Teeming With Civilizations, But Where Are They?

Is there obvious proof that we could be alone in the Galaxy? Enrico Fermi thought so -- and he was a pretty smart guy. Might he have been right?

It's been a hundred years since Fermi, an icon of physics, was born (and nearly a half-century since he died). He's best remembered for building a working atomic reactor in a squash court. But in 1950, Fermi made a seemingly innocuous lunchtime remark that has caught and held the attention of every SETI researcher since. (How many luncheon quips have you made with similar consequence?)

The remark came while Fermi was discussing with his mealtime mates the possibility that many sophisticated societies populate the Galaxy. They thought it reasonable to assume that we have a lot of cosmic company. But somewhere between one sentence and the next, Fermi's supple brain realized that if this was true, it implied something profound. If there are really a lot of alien societies, then some of them might have spread out.

Fermi realized that any civilization with a modest amount of rocket technology and an immodest amount of imperial incentive could rapidly colonize the entire Galaxy. Within ten million years, every star system could be brought under the wing of empire. Ten million years may sound long, but in fact it's quite short compared with the age of the Galaxy, which is roughly ten thousand million years. Colonization of the Milky Way should be a quick exercise.

So what Fermi immediately realized was that the aliens have had more than enough time to pepper the Galaxy with their presence. But looking around, he didn't see any clear indication that they're out and about. This prompted Fermi to ask what was (to him) an obvious question: "where is everybody?"

Fermi Paradox | SETI Institute

Thus, the Fermi Paradox provides more evidence of God.

In addition to this, we have found that fine tuning prohibits life on other planets unless they are finely tuned like earth. Has there been experiments done where they take earth creatures to see if they can survive on the moon? We already know they can survive in outer space, but can they survive and thrive on the moon? If they can't, then it's more evidence for the fine tuning theory.

Oh good grief!

We are a backward, raping, warring, stupid people, at this point.

Why would any more advanced aliens want to make contact with us.

They are probably just observing our folly, - and lack of true human advancement, at this point.

As I have said before - I have seen a flying saucer. So have other members of my family, and other local people.

And there is no proof of God - no matter how you try to wrangle it.

*

 

[jonathan180iq]

Methane is a naturally existing element too. It is not a sign of life. For example:

The Mysterious ‘Lakes’ on Saturn's Moon Titan

Indeed - but emitted gaseous methane in concentration is not generally found without a biological precursor. Even our gaseous under-sea emissions primarily have biological sources.

The releases on Mars are not isolated and they are consistent. They are also located near areas where the other remnants of biological processes have been discovered.

Is it circumstantial? Sure.
Is it found in areas that are of biological interest on the Red Planet? Yep.
Is it also consistent with what should be expected if primitive life originated in these places? Also yes.

Combined with everything else that we've learned about the possibility of biological processes on Mars, I'm leaning towards a biotic origin as opposed to an oddly consistent and predictable geological process on an otherwise quiet geological planet.

 

[Father Heathen]

Is there anything else besides PRATT's on the creationist side? All one runs into are repackaged arguments.

The stupid argument about missing aliens was refuted in this thread: Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That There Is A God

...and again in this thread: Interstellar asteroid shows no signs of life so far

I suppose in a few months it will be regurgitated once again. Creationists, eh.

 

[james bond]

List of exoplanets - Wikipedia
"As of 1 February 2018 there are 3,588 confirmed exoplanets..."

The frist exoplanet was discovered in 1992.
That's an average discovery rate of 132 per year.
We confirmed the existence of 1,300 in 2016 alone.

Ignorance does not equate to emptiness.

Based on the number, there should be hundreds, if not thousands, of ET civilizations out there. They may not all be intelligent, but some intelligent life forms should be out there based on what we know. Some should be more advanced than us. My contention is if there is intelligent life based on how life evolves, and they use energy, then we should be able to detect them even though we are many light years away. Or they can detect us. The odds favor this detection. The ones who are just protozoa or non-intelligent creatures may not be detectable. Also, we can detect if a planet has water or not. Thus, where is everybody?

 

[Father Heathen]

Then we agree, human authority is worth little in establishing scientific truth. And that's very refreshing to hear from someone who believes in e.g. Darwinian evolution- because the human authority argument is usually a major part of it. In fact many debates on that subject never get beyond it. So I would love the rare chance to debate evolution on substance, and make it a rule not to resort to any argument from authority- again on another thread perhaps

So you admit that the bible, written by man, is worthless?

 

[Father Heathen]

Based on the number, there should be hundreds, if not thousands, of ET civilizations out there. They may not all be intelligent, but some intelligent life forms should be out there based on what we know. Some should be more advanced than us. My contention is if there is intelligent life based on how life evolves, and they use energy, then we should be able to detect them even though we are many light years away. Or they can detect us. The odds favor this detection. The ones who are just protozoa or non-intelligent creatures may not be detectable. Also, we can detect if a planet has water or not. Thus, where is everybody?

See post #85.

 

[james bond]

It is a valid question but it doesn't have a definitive answer. The question doesn't automatically mean there are (or have been) no advanced alien species as there are other possible explanations for us have never recognised any evidence of their existence and we're not in a position to know the right answer.

No, it still doesn't. Even if we had definitive proof that there are no aliens, one thing not mentioned in the Bible not existing wouldn't "back up the Bible". There are countless other religions which don't mention aliens but it couldn't back them all up (many are contradictory or explicitly exclusive). There are probably one or two which do mention aliens and explain why we don't know they exist so if anything they'd have more justification to take this as backing for their faiths.

I thought the idea was that any intelligent alien species would inevitably colonise the galaxy given enough time. Why doesn't that apply to humans too?

I'm going to take off my Christian cap and put on my science one. It served the purpose of getting this topic on RF.

I would think there would be other intelligent civilizations like ours based on evolutionary thinking and the number of planets that are similar to earth. There could be many with non-intelligent life as past Mars, but we do not know this even with our probes and high powered telescopes. Certainly, any intelligent civilization would give off evidence such as entropy and we would detect them.

Humans are trying to colonize or become multiplanetary, but our civilization isn't advanced enough to get other humans to another habitable planet, assuming there is one within reachable distance. What we can do is send out robots or probes to investigate other planets for habitability and signs of life. What hasn't been found is life itself.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

So you admit that the bible, written by man, is worthless?

Divine creation, so the human authority rule doesn't count!

 

[Father Heathen]

Divine creation, so the human authority rule doesn't count!

Who needs the scientific method when you have circular logic.

 

[james bond]

The stupid argument about missing aliens was refuted in this thread: Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That There Is A God

...and again in this thread: Interstellar asteroid shows no signs of life so far

I suppose in a few months it will be regurgitated once again. Creationists, eh.

You mean heathens, eh.

The odds show that there should be aliens. Are you agreeing that our earth is a rare place indeed?

 

[Father Heathen]

You mean heathens, eh.

The odds show that there should be aliens. Are you agreeing that our earth is a rare place indeed?

Again, your silly argument has already been refuted in the threads that I've linked. Do I really have to copy and paste the rebuttals from them?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Indeed - but emitted gaseous methane in concentration is not generally found without a biological precursor. Even our gaseous under-sea emissions primarily have biological sources.

The releases on Mars are not isolated and they are consistent. They are also located near areas where the other remnants of biological processes have been discovered.

Is it circumstantial? Sure.
Is it found in areas that are of biological interest on the Red Planet? Yep.
Is it also consistent with what should be expected if primitive life originated in these places? Also yes.

Combined with everything else that we've learned about the possibility of biological processes on Mars, I'm leaning towards a biotic origin as opposed to an oddly consistent and predictable geological process on an otherwise quiet geological planet.

The article I linked was on methane found in the form of lakes of methane on the moons of Saturn. No indication of life at all. The methane what we observe today on the Earth is biogenic, that does not mean that was always the case. Your logic is faulty.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The stupid argument about missing aliens was refuted in this thread: Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That There Is A God

...and again in this thread: Interstellar asteroid shows no signs of life so far

I suppose in a few months it will be regurgitated once again. Creationists, eh.

Yep. Very very rarely a new argument is posted. But one can bet that regardless of how well it is refuted that one will see that same argument in the not very distant future.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The idea is not "may" or "probably," but should be widespread in the universe according to evolution. If intelligent life didn't arise, then that goes against evolution.

Oh, my!

 

[QuestioningMind]

One of my arguments for evidence of God is aliens or the lack of extraterrestrial life. In other words, the Bible does not state that God created aliens.

Most of us know about Drake's Equation when discussing aliens. Yet, even if we acknowledge that Drake did not make his parameters correct in his equation, there has been enough time for SETI to have made extraterrestrial contact or aliens to have made contact with SETI. If there are intelligent alien civilizations and other planets like earth in the universe, then they would have the power to be able to fly and colonize the universe as we would. They should have been here if they possessed superior technology to ours. This lack of contact by extraterrestrials led Dr. Enrico Fermi to suddenly exclaim, "Where is Everybody?" during a lunch he was having with distinguished scientist colleagues in 1961 after a discussion about ETs.

A Numerical Testbed for Hypotheses of Extraterrestrial Life and Intelligence
[0810.2222] A Numerical Testbed for Hypotheses of Extraterrestrial Life and Intelligence

"Our Galaxy Should Be Teeming With Civilizations, But Where Are They?

Is there obvious proof that we could be alone in the Galaxy? Enrico Fermi thought so -- and he was a pretty smart guy. Might he have been right?

It's been a hundred years since Fermi, an icon of physics, was born (and nearly a half-century since he died). He's best remembered for building a working atomic reactor in a squash court. But in 1950, Fermi made a seemingly innocuous lunchtime remark that has caught and held the attention of every SETI researcher since. (How many luncheon quips have you made with similar consequence?)

The remark came while Fermi was discussing with his mealtime mates the possibility that many sophisticated societies populate the Galaxy. They thought it reasonable to assume that we have a lot of cosmic company. But somewhere between one sentence and the next, Fermi's supple brain realized that if this was true, it implied something profound. If there are really a lot of alien societies, then some of them might have spread out.

Fermi realized that any civilization with a modest amount of rocket technology and an immodest amount of imperial incentive could rapidly colonize the entire Galaxy. Within ten million years, every star system could be brought under the wing of empire. Ten million years may sound long, but in fact it's quite short compared with the age of the Galaxy, which is roughly ten thousand million years. Colonization of the Milky Way should be a quick exercise.

So what Fermi immediately realized was that the aliens have had more than enough time to pepper the Galaxy with their presence. But looking around, he didn't see any clear indication that they're out and about. This prompted Fermi to ask what was (to him) an obvious question: "where is everybody?"

Fermi Paradox | SETI Institute

Thus, the Fermi Paradox provides more evidence of God.

In addition to this, we have found that fine tuning prohibits life on other planets unless they are finely tuned like earth. Has there been experiments done where they take earth creatures to see if they can survive on the moon? We already know they can survive in outer space, but can they survive and thrive on the moon? If they can't, then it's more evidence for the fine tuning theory.

This was clearly written by someone who doesn't have a clue how vast our galaxy is or what a relatively short amount of time that humans have been in existence. It sounds like it was written by someone with a 2nd grader's comprehension.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, one assumption of Fermi's that leads to the paradox is that civilizations survive for millions of years.

Our species is about 150,000 years old, we have had agriculture for about 10,000 years and have had radio for just over 100 years. I've yet to hear anyone confidently claim we will be around another 10,000 years, let alone 1 million.

This also ignores the economic aspect of travel to other stars. For example, at this point in time, we have sent a couple of probes out that can get to other stars *in a few tens of thousands of years*. The likelihood of those probes actually being found (once they are radio silent) is pretty much zero.

To actually send a probe out that will collect information and return it to the source in a reasonable amount of time is a HUGE problem. Getting to speeds close to the speed of light takes a *lot* of energy. Lower speeds simply won't get the information back before the society changes. And such energy resources will be valuable no matter what species we are talking about.

So, until there is a LOT of extra energy produced by their society, it won't be economic to travel in any real way to the stars *unless* they also figure out how to *automatically* search and mine asteroids and planets and have everything done by automatic probes.

Again, not exactly an economical thing to do directly, although there are clearly economic advantages on shorter time periods.

I confidently predict that humans will be around for a million years.
Cockroaches managed it with one antenna tied behind their backs,
& they don't even have digital watches.

 

[Polymath257]

You insist on moving goalposts. It's tiresome ...

How is that moving goalposts? We now know much more about planets around other stars. That has made the 'Rare Earth' position increasingly untenable. if anything, we fully expect Earthlike planets to be common.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How is that moving goalposts?

Seriously?