Where is God when awful things happen?

[blü 2]

Because God is God, and we are not.

You demand that God be comprehensible to you. But why do you assume that should this be so?​

As I said, to my observation the world behaves exactly as if gods existed only in human imagination.

That's my comprehension of gods.

If a real god on eg the Christian outline existed, I'd find it wholly incompatible with that outline were he to act like he was imaginary.

 

[Akivah]

There's so much evil garbage that happens every day all over the world and my biggest question is where God is when any of this stuff happens. Does God just not care? If the Abrahamic view of God is true, then he has the ability to make it all stop and to, essentially, remove evil from all of existence, but instead God chooses to let evil run rampant and lets unspeakable things happen to babies, children, the elderly, and good people. Why would any loving and merciful God allow for any wicked thing you can think of to exist in his world? No matter how I look at it, it just doesn't make any sense to me and the question puts me that much closer to being an atheist.

It doesn't make sense to you because you are using a false premise, a strawman. There is not a single place in the Torah where G-d said that bad things wouldn't happen to people if they believe in Him. So badmouthing G-d for something He never said doesn't make sense.

 

[McBell]

This strikes me as a rather interesting statement. It seems to describe a lot of cases of human suffering. e.g. when one human murders, rapes, or tortures another human. But there also seem to be a lot of cases that your statement does not describe. For instance, when a poisonous animal bites someone and they suffer, perhaps even die because of it. Or when suffers and perhaps even dies from a disease. So I'm wondering how you would explain those cases in such a way that your statement, " All human suffering is caused by other humans exercising their free will in the wrong way." was true?

I suspect it is a "Count the hits, ignore the misses" attitude.

Take any natural disaster where people die.
Look at the news reports and you will always find articles with people saying things like: Thank god we were not killed.
What about those who WERE killed?
What kind of thanks are you giving god for them?

 

[Sanzbir]

There's so much evil garbage that happens every day all over the world and my biggest question is where God is when any of this stuff happens. Does God just not care? If the Abrahamic view of God is true, then he has the ability to make it all stop and to, essentially, remove evil from all of existence, but instead God chooses to let evil run rampant and lets unspeakable things happen to babies, children, the elderly, and good people. Why would any loving and merciful God allow for any wicked thing you can think of to exist in his world? No matter how I look at it, it just doesn't make any sense to me and the question puts me that much closer to being an atheist.

There is no "good". There is no "evil". Such only results from mentally dividing things into "good" and "evil" categories.

If a person is able to reject the idea that "good" and "evil" are tangible, real things, then there is no fault in the world, and contentment can be obtained.

If one, however, embraces the idea of "good" and "evil", then even the "most perfect" world will still seem like a depressing, evil place to them. Suffering is born of this mindset.

This is why Adam and Eve, in the old story, after embracing the "Knowledge" of Good and Evil, cease being in paradise. They have arbitrarily decided to see imperfection in things and have, thus, turned Eden into a flawed Earth, merely by adopting a perspective.

 

[PureX]

As I said, to my observation the world behaves exactly as if gods existed only in human imagination.

That's my comprehension of gods.

Everything that exists, to us, exists as a result of human imagination. What we call "reality" is an imaginary conceptual construct. What we believe it means that something "exist' is an imaginary conceptual construct. Even our own identity is an imaginary conceptual construct that exists only in our minds, and in the minds of others.

We have no knowledge of existence apart from our imagination. We have no knowledge of anything apart from our imagination. It is through our imagination that we make sense of what our bodies experience. Perception, itself, is conception. And conception requires imagination.

So to claim that God is imaginary, is meaningless, as we humans cognate via imagination. To claim that God doesn't exist apart from or beyond our imagination is unsupportable, as we humans do not know the boundaries of existence beyond our imaginations. Nor the source, nor the purpose, nor the mechanisms involved.

 

[blü 2]

There is no "good". There is no "evil". Such only results from mentally dividing things into "good" and "evil" categories.

The person watching the ants nest may conclude that there is no good or bad in the conduct of ants. The person participating in human society must be psychopathic and grossly selfserving to think good and bad don't exist, or if they do, they don't matter.

If a person is able to reject the idea that "good" and "evil" are tangible, real things, then there is no fault in the world, and contentment can be obtained.

So to you it doesn't matter that people were killed in a terrorist attack in Spain just now. We should drop all medical research, let disease run as it will, and smile blissfully. Poverty? Bad water? Drought? Tornado? Arrogance? Injustice? Doesn't matter, you say?

Bollocks.

 

[Koldo]

There's so much evil garbage that happens every day all over the world and my biggest question is where God is when any of this stuff happens. Does God just not care? If the Abrahamic view of God is true, then he has the ability to make it all stop and to, essentially, remove evil from all of existence, but instead God chooses to let evil run rampant and lets unspeakable things happen to babies, children, the elderly, and good people. Why would any loving and merciful God allow for any wicked thing you can think of to exist in his world? No matter how I look at it, it just doesn't make any sense to me and the question puts me that much closer to being an atheist.

[ Insert any random excuse here that would let the one that believes in an omnimax god to keep believing in an omnimax god. ]

That sums it up.

 

[Koldo]

Is the fact that awful things happen to people who don't deserve them good grounds for denying that god exists?

Depends. Some would say that an evil god, for instance, is no God at all.

 

[blü 2]

Everything that exists, to us, exists as a result of human imagination. What we call "reality" is an imaginary conceptual construct. What we believe it means that something "exist' is an imaginary conceptual construct. Even our own identity is an imaginary conceptual construct that exists only in our minds, and in the minds of others.

Well, if that's so, in practice it seems to work out okay. Why, I hear people actually get to talk to each other, not just stay locked inside their tiny worlds ─ even on net sites, would you believe!

We have no knowledge of existence apart from our imagination.

How did you manage to type and send your post then? It doesn't look imaginary to me.

So to claim that God is imaginary, is meaningless

No, A world exists outside of the self ─ that is, there are things with objective existence ─ and our senses are capable of informing us of them.

And you already know this, since you're posting here.

And in that objective world no supernatural beings are found. The only place they've been found is in the imagination of individual humans.

 

[Koldo]

Because God is God, and we are not.

You demand that God be comprehensible to you. But why do you assume that should this be so?​

Epicurus's demand is not for God to be comprehensible to us. His demand is for God to be logically compatible with the world.

 

[Sanzbir]

The person watching the ants nest may conclude that there is no good or bad in the conduct of ants. The person participating in human society must be psychopathic and grossly selfserving to think good and bad don't exist, or if they do, they don't matter.

So to you it doesn't matter that people were killed in a terrorist attack in Spain just now. We should drop all medical research, let disease run as it will, and smile blissfully. Poverty? Bad water? Drought? Tornado? Arrogance? Injustice? Doesn't matter, you say?

Bollocks.

Prove evil and good objectively exist.

It. Is. Myth.

Burden of proof is on you for your magical intangible "evil."

 

[George-ananda]

If the Abrahamic view of God is true,

I think that is the key point. We need a more sophisticated understanding today to make sense of this. I have found the more advanced eastern (Indian/Vedic;Hindu) thinking has delved deeper into understanding the nature of reality. The key point for me was moving beyond a dualistic (God and creation are two Abrahamic view) to a non-dualistic (God and creation are not-two Vedic view) for things to begin to make sense.

You are talking about the oft discussed 'Problem of Evil' question. Here is a little something I wrote a while back. I will share my 2-cents here:

I look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things and temporary sufferings make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.


Plus Problem of Evil proponents look at good/bad events as happening randomly to people. Eastern thinkers believe a long series of cause/events (karma) causes things to be the way they are.


I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multi-dimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little speck and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.



I think to understand the answer to the 'Problem of Evil' we need to start thinking in more eastern ways.


1) That we live for eons in a soul developing process; not one body's duration. In that perspective any suffering in one life is short and temporary in this grander view. And even an unfortunate life and death has lessons for that soul and for those seeing and interacting with the unfortunate life.


2) That such things are not as random as they appear. There is chain of cause and effect through time we can not see.


3) That those currently living an unfortunate life will have victory 'enlightenment' at the end of the challenges.


4) That it is God at the core of everything and it is He who experiences the temporary good and bad fortunes. It is ultimately not Him imposing it on other separate beings. It is His play/drama where He separates Himself from Himself and returns Himself to Himself but this play ends with a happy ending for all. In any great play/drama there is always drama/suffering in the middle.

 

[PureX]

Epicurus's demand is not for God to be comprehensible to us. His demand is for God to be logically compatible with the world.

No, his demand is that God be compatible with our understanding of the world. Which as I am sure you are aware, is very limited, and very often wrong. Why should we then assume that the creator/sustainer of a world that's greater than our ability to comprehend, be, itself, comprehensible to us?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why are you allowing centuries old goat herders to define "God" for you?

Are they less qualified to do it than anyone else?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, his demand is that God be compatible with our understanding of the world. Which as I am sure you are aware, is very limited, and very often wrong. Why should we then assume that the creator/sustainer of a world that's greater than our ability to comprehend, be, itself, comprehensible to us?

IOW, if we saw the big picture, maybe we'd understand that all forms of suffering inflicted on people might actually be for the best.

That might be the most poisonous thought religion ever came up with, IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It doesn't make sense to you because you are using a false premise, a strawman. There is not a single place in the Torah where G-d said that bad things wouldn't happen to people if they believe in Him. So badmouthing G-d for something He never said doesn't make sense.

IOW, it's okay for God to be evil occasionally, because he never promised to be entirely good?

 

[PureX]

A world exists outside of the self ─ that is, there are things with objective existence ─ and our senses are capable of informing us of them.

I understand that you believe this, but there really is no way for us to verify this proposition. Once we are removed from the "world", or the "world" is removed from us, any question of either's nature, or existence, becomes unverifiable, and essentially moot. We can't know what we don't know. And we don't know anything apart from our subjective means of "knowing". Logically speaking, there is no "objective reality", that we know of.

 

[Koldo]

Prove evil and good objectively exist.

It. Is. Myth.

Burden of proof is on you for your magical intangible "evil."

There is no 'problem of evil' if good is a matter of opinion.

 

[blü 2]

Prove evil and good objectively exist.

It. Is. Myth.

Burden of proof is on you for your magical intangible "evil."

They don't have objective existence. They're human value judgments, from our genetics, hence from our evolution.

Certain aspects of morality are also genetic ─ child nurture and protection, dislike of the one who harms, fairness and reciprocity, loyalty to the group, respect for authority, and a sense of self-worth or virtue through self-denial. Other aspects are cultural ─ how to hold your knife and fork, may you fart and if so when, whether a brideprice or a dowry or neither is payable &c.

So such judgments are part of being human, and to pretend otherwise may suit a psychopath, as I said, but not other members of society.

 

[DanielR]

what if everything is perfect already, only our warped view of reality is the problem?