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Where is Liberty and freedom? Will it someday become extinct?

shmogie

Well-Known Member
9 judges; 2 dissenting



Depends on whether you are looking for the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. Since some aspects of the Constitution are not expressly clear about some ideas, the Constitution must be interpreted whenever a case, such as Roe vs. Wade, comes along to challenge the current laws. Privacy laws have evolved over time. That's how our system works.
*****

"The U. S. Constitution contains no express right to privacy. The Bill of Rights, however, reflects the concern of James Madison and other framers for protecting specific aspects of privacy, such as the privacy of beliefs (1st Amendment), privacy of the home against demands that it be used to house soldiers (3rd Amendment), privacy of the person and possessions as against unreasonable searches (4th Amendment), and the 5th Amendment's privilege against self-incrimination, which provides protection for the privacy of personal information. In addition, the Ninth Amendment states that the "enumeration of certain rights" in the Bill of Rights "shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." The meaning of the Ninth Amendment is elusive, but some persons (including Justice Goldberg in his Griswold concurrence) have interpreted the Ninth Amendment as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.


The question of whether the Constitution protects privacy in ways not expressly provided in the Bill of Rights is controversial. Many originalists, including most famously Judge Robert Bork in his ill-fated Supreme Court confirmation hearings, have argued that no such general right of privacy exists. The Supreme Court, however, beginning as early as 1923 and continuing through its recent decisions, has broadly read the "liberty" guarantee of the Fourteenth Amendment to guarantee a fairly broad right of privacy that has come to encompass decisions about child rearing, procreation, marriage, and termination of medical treatment. Polls show most Americans support this broader reading of the Constitution."
*****

The most frequently quoted statement by a Supreme Court justice on the subject of privacy comes in Justice Brandeis's dissent in Olmstead v. U. S. (1928):

"The makers of our Constitution understood the need to secure conditions favorable to the pursuit of happiness, and the protections guaranteed by this are much broader in scope, and include the right to life and an inviolate personality -- the right to be left alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men. The principle underlying the Fourth and Fifth Amendments is protection against invasions of the sanctities of a man's home and privacies of life. This is a recognition of the significance of man's spiritual nature, his feelings, and his intellect."

The Right of Privacy: Is it Protected by the Constitution?

Heaven forbid that you and your ilk get their way, and we have Nazi snoops in our bedrooms. We know that types like yourself want to pry open these privacy rights so you can have full access to every citizen's activities and even our thoughts, 24/7, watching all our comings and goings, and keeping a database on every minutiae, no matter how small. And the excuse you always use is "What have you got to hide?" Nothing, but we don't have anything to show you, either, because it's none of your business!. The bottom line is that you want a certified 'Christian Nation' with its' Inquisitors and Snoops ostracizing all non-Christians and putting them under constant surveillance by your jack-booted Nazi Snoop Brigade Thugs to ferret out imaginary offenses for punishment. That makes you closer to God via contrast, cuz you're on the 'right side' of the Law. IOW, you want total control, and that's because, at its root, Christianity is not based on real knowledge, but insecure beliefs, and because Christians need a devil to beat up on to perpetuate the Hero Myth. Such screwed up nut jobs, Christians are!:p Yuk!
As proven, you don't know JACK about what I or anybody else wants. You are a hysterical bozo whose opinions are ignorant, errant, and pitiful. You actually need professional help, seek it
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As proven, you don't know JACK about what I or anybody else wants. You are a hysterical bozo whose opinions are ignorant, errant, and pitiful. You actually need professional help, seek it

I thought that his (or her) opinions were well articulated and his arguments sound.

As for hysterical, it's you that has lost his cool and is hurling personal attacks.

I became a Christian as an adult married and out of college. Before that time I was a raging atheist, although much more classy about it than you, Yet I believed abortion in the latter stages of pregnancy was wrong. How could that be ? I was free of those mean old religious restrictions, why not just embrace the killing, like you ?

What's your belief now? Isn't it that abortion at any stage of pregnancy is wrong?

I assume that most pro-choice people feel that absent a medical emergency, there is point in the pregnancy when it is too late, and even then, vaginal delivery or caesarean section should be attempted. That's my position.

Then you became a Christian, and now you hold a typically Christian position. So how does that support your contention that your view is not a religious one?

Do you recall my comment about manufactured outrage, and the way it clusters in the group indoctrinated to feel and express it? What fraction of people protesting Planned Parenthood clinics or attempting to defund them aren't Christians?

Organic, grass roots outrage is distributed more evenly among people. Outrage at Martin Shkreli, the 9/11 attackers, and Jeffrey Dahmer cut across all demographics. The world is outraged at Assad's chemical attacks on people.

But outrage about abortion is mostly a Christian thing, meaning that it's being taught to Christians. They're being trained to think of abortion as baby murder in order to stoke the fires and artificially boost the outrage.And I think you just described it happening to you when you went from an atheist who disapproved of late term abortion to a Christian that disapproves of it at any stage, and has begun calling it murdering babies, another pretty reliable sign of Christian indoctrination.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I thought that his (or her) opinions were well articulated and his arguments sound.

As for hysterical, it's you that has lost his cool and is hurling personal attacks.



What's your belief now? Isn't it that abortion at any stage of pregnancy is wrong?

I assume that most pro-choice people feel that absent a medical emergency, there is point in the pregnancy when it is too late, and even then, vaginal delivery or caesarean section should be attempted. That's my position.

Then you became a Christian, and now you hold a typically Christian position. So how does that support your contention that your view is not a religious one?

Do you recall my comment about manufactured outrage, and the way it clusters in the group indoctrinated to feel and express it? What fraction of people protesting Planned Parenthood clinics or attempting to defund them aren't Christians?

Organic, grass roots outrage is distributed more evenly among people. Outrage at Martin Shkreli, the 9/11 attackers, and Jeffrey Dahmer cut across all demographics. The world is outraged at Assad's chemical attacks on people.

But outrage about abortion is mostly a Christian thing, meaning that it's being taught to Christians. They're being trained to think of abortion as baby murder in order to stoke the fires and artificially boost the outrage.And I think you just described it happening to you when you went from an atheist who disapproved of late term abortion to a Christian that disapproves of it at any stage, and has begun calling it murdering babies, another pretty reliable sign of Christian indoctrination.
You know, I couldn't care less about your opinion on this matter. If 75% of the American people want limitations on abortion, and they do, your opinion is wrong. I have STATED TWICE, that first trimester abortion would be acceptable to me, with a detailed explanation of why, are you now also calling me a liar ? It has always been murdering baby's, I haven't BEGUN saying that, I have said it for almost 50 years.

You people don't listen, you have a preconceived set of opinions that apply even when you are specifically told they are wrong. YOU KNOW what I have to believe, therefore that is what I believe, codswollop.

The guy who you believed is so rational and reasoned, because he supports the killing like you, is irrational. To say I am a jack booted nazi, based totally on ignorance proves him to be a viscious liar. Produce the same bull****, join the same lying club.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
It has always been murdering baby's...

You appeal to the emotional and the sensational to support your argument.

You people don't listen, you have a preconceived set of opinions that apply even when you are specifically told they are wrong. YOU KNOW what I have to believe, therefore that is what I believe, codswollop.

The Christian God is not giving you a choice as to WHAT to believe, which is why Christians see all other views as false teachings. Problem with your religion, is that it is open to interpretation, and so we have hundreds of Christian sects and many versions of the Bible, all with their interpretation as to what the Christian God meant to say. The fact that you admit to belief, rather than knowing, tells me you simply don't actually know what God is telling you. The passage in Exodus that I pointed out makes clear how abortion is viewed, which is equivalent to a misdemeanor, and which does not include murder.

To say I am a jack booted nazi, based totally on ignorance proves him to be a viscious liar. .

I did not call YOU a jack booted nazi; I said that, were you and others of your mind were to get their way, it would lead to a situation where Christianity, in political power, would employ such means. In the name of 'Jesus', of course, which makes it all OK. I have no doubt that this would be the case. And I know you Christians are just chomping at the bit to seize power in order to establish your ruthless rule. Besides, you've got to beat out the Muslims before they take control of the world. Like you who are hell bent for leather to abolish Roe vs. Wade, like a bull in a china shop, I am hell bent for leather to stop you and others like you from getting control of the government, and to strengthen safeguards such as separation of church and state. I have seen enough of what Christian 'authority' can do, and have had enough, both of you and Islam, both joined at the hip as you are.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
As proven, you don't know JACK about what I or anybody else wants. You are a hysterical bozo whose opinions are ignorant, errant, and pitiful. You actually need professional help, seek it

Typical Christian ploy, to denigrate others by foisting your Shadow onto them, when your silly but dangerous beliefs have been exposed for what they are: poppycock.!

It is YOU that is the 'hysterical bozo' who wants to bust the fragile rights of women by trashing all the hard work they did to establish the ruling of Roe vs Wade, which protects them. What right do you have to snoop around in their uterus? You want to use God as the authority to do so, and more. Get out!

What I have shown for one thing, as regards to privacy rights and the Constitution, is that

"Polls show most Americans support this broader reading of the Constitution."
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
The guy who you believed is so rational and reasoned, because he supports the killing like you, is irrational. To say I am a jack booted nazi, based totally on ignorance proves him to be a viscious liar. Produce the same bull****, join the same lying club.

ha ha ha...maybe we both just see the same thing. It is called 'the truth'. It's really nothing special. Difficult to see, though, when you place doctrines in the way that bend the truth to fit your teeth.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
You seem to think that the supremes are gods. I assume that when they ruled a number of times that slavery was OK, you agree they were right, till later supremes said they were wrong.

Many believe and believed those pro slavery decisions were wrong based upon the Constitution, you don't care about the Constitution, only the majority OPINION of the supremes. I can go through history and point out many opinions were wrong, you believe they were right.

Actually a later court found roe was wrong. Roe limited abortion in the second trimester and abolished it in the third, they were right according to you, right ? in 2001 it was expanded to slaughter at any time, this was right too, huh ?

You don't find it crazy, in the least that a person can go to jail for murder if they kill an unborn baby, but a physician can butcher hundreds, with no penalty.

You say the murderer killed a "potential person", what the hell is the doctor killing, pickles ?

Roe WILL be overturned, just like those pro slavery decisions were overturned. I will continue, along with many millions of others to see that this comes about, by every legal means, just as millions did when the supremes, with your agreement, said slavery was legal.

As to you statement that I find myself a "pillar of science", why do you resort to hyperbolic lies ? Yep, you are a liar

I said I observed over years, I said observation was a foundation of science. That's it.

.

No, you did not. What you said...

"I know based upon observation. A pillar of science"

...sounded like you were referring to yourself as in:

"I know based upon observation. [as I am] A pillar of science"

Now you change the meaning to 'foundation' rather than 'pillar', as in 'pillar of the community'.

You may have 'observed over the years' that a pig fetus resembles a pig, and come to the conclusion that it IS a pig, when it is not YET a pig, and so is a mistake. It is a pig FETUS, which is not yet a pig. An unborn human fetus is not a person. Show me where this is the case. Show me the 'person' that is in the fetus, either via legal definition, or via cultural definition.

As I said, the law is always evolving. That the racist Dred Scot decision was eventually overturned, and that Roe vs Wade was established as a counter to the unjust Texas state law, are both part of this evolution of the law. Both represent an event signifying a change in how society sees reality, a 'coming out of the dark and into the light' transition, if you will. That is the evolution of the human mind. In fact, the entire Constitution is symbolic of this evolution of the mind of man. The first Americans had just come out of the darkness of oppressive state religion, and decided to be free men. And this is precisely why separation of church and state is such a critical issue, and why we must prevent any religion from seizing political power in the name of their deity. We must remain a free and open society if democracy is to survive, and a theocracy would mean just the opposite. This is NOT a Christian Nation, an idea wrapped up in the racist idea of 'Manifest Destiny', which was the primary philosophical vehicle for the genocide of the Indian nations, the enslavement of Africans, and the theft of over 1/3 of Mexico's northern territories, territories over which flew the Mexican flag.
 
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