Where is the evidence for Jesus?

[FFH]

For s2a: Flavius Josephus

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Josephus - An Eyewitness to Christianity
Josephus was a historian who lived from 37 A.D. to about 100 A.D. He was a member of the priestly aristocracy of the Jews, and was taken hostage by the Roman Empire in the great Jewish revolt of 66-70 A.D. Josephus spent the rest of his life in or around Rome as an advisor and historian to three emperors, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. For centuries, the works of Josephus were more widely read in Europe than any book other than the Bible. They are invaluable sources of eyewitness testimony to the development of Western civilization, including the foundation and growth of Christianity in the 1st Century.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Josephus - Biblical Accounts Outside the Bible
Josephus mentions New Testament events and people in some of his works. For many skeptics, this is viewed as significant evidence against the myth and legend theories that plague early Christianity. Here are some excerpts:

Josephus mentions Jesus in Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 (this paragraph is so phenomenal, that scholars now debate the authenticity of some of the more “favorable” portions of this text):

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

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[FFH]

Josephus - Wikipedia

Flavius Josephus Home Page

 

[FFH]

Josephus' Account of Jesus

 

[FFH]

Not only do we have written records of Jesus but we also have a photo of him.

The Shroud of Turin is a photo of Jesus Christ at the time of his death/resurrection..

This image was burned into the cloth at the time of his resurrection.

 

[Mister Emu]

Besides the fact that the gospels and writings of the NT should be counted as evidence towards a historical Jesus(regardless of whether you believe in Him or not)

Aside from the hotly debated Testimonium(sp) Josephus in "Antiquities" wrote:

brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James

for one.

Tacticus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . .

for another.

The Babylonian Talmud says:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

Lucian of Samosata(a satirist) wrote:

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws

Note: These were just from a search... if any of them are wrong sorry.

 

[FFH]

 

[FFH]

I like this one, amazing....

 

[FFH]

Turin Shroud Center of Coloradohttp://www.sindone.org/en/welcome.htm

 

[Comprehend]

FFH, One or two is plenty. You are just spamming the thread...

 

[pladecalvo]

why are you so sure about it?

I think that maybe the historians who wrote about Hitler or Stalin were not followers and disagreed with what they did but they still documented the events.

And you would deny the existance of any historical figure who cannot satisfy these requirements?

If they were reported to be as famous as Jesus, yet they had no evidence to support their existence, I would have to say.......yes!

Could you provide a verifiably authentic roman record of any common criminal proceding from around 33AD in Jerusalem? Do you have access to all of them? There were literally thousands of people crucified by the romans as I understand it. Where are the records for those legal proceedings?

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Jesus was someone who was reputed to have raised people from the dead, cured the blind, healed the sick, walked on water, fed thousands with a few loaves of bread. Far from being a common criminal, he was considered important enough to be tried by Pontius Pilate. Pilate would not be interested in common criminals. So I think the trail and execution of such an important man would have been recorded.

No I don't have access to legal proceedings of the time but I think that if they existed, the Church would have been the first to make them public in order to strengthen their claim.

Plato, Moses, Anaxamander, Xerxes... I guess I could make an almost never endind list of people who cannot satisfy your requirements. Do you deny all of their existances? If not, why do you single out Jesus?

We have the works of Plato and accounts of his life that have been written by his contemporaries. For Alexander we have cities that were named after him and reports of his battles written by historians that were not necessarily his followers. The life of Julius Ceasar is recorded and we have coins with his portrait on. The same for people like Cleopatra and Mark Anthony.

 

[pladecalvo]

To FFH.

I can't seem to reply to your post regarding Josephus due to so technical reason so I will do it here.

Yes, there is a passage by Josephus that speaks of a Jesus Christ but this passage is widely accepted by scholars as being a forgery. For one thing, Josephus was a devout Jew and would never have referred to Jesus as 'the Christ'. Another is that the style and vocabulary used is not thought to be that of Josephus. The passage also interupts what Josephus was writing about at the time. All copies of this work have come from Christian sources.

 

[pladecalvo]

......as for the Turin Shroud. It is also widely regarded as being a fake.

 

[pladecalvo]

Besides the fact that the gospels and writings of the NT should be counted as evidence towards a historical Jesus(regardless of whether you believe in Him or not)

Aside from the hotly debated Testimonium(sp) Josephus in "Antiquities" wrote:

for one.

Tacticus wrote:

for another.

The Babylonian Talmud says:


Lucian of Samosata(a satirist) wrote:


Note: These were just from a search... if any of them are wrong sorry.

The brief notice in Tacitus Annals xv.44 mentions only his title, Christus, and his execution in Judea by order of Pontius Pilatus. Nor is there any reason to believe that Tacitus bases this on independent information-it is what Christians would be saying in Rome in the early second century. Suetonius and Pliny, together with Tacitus, testify to the significant presence of Christians in Rome and other parts of the empire from the mid-sixties onwards, but add nothing to our knowledge of their founder. No other clear pagan references to Jesus can be dated before AD 150/1/, by which time the source of any information is more likely to be Christian propaganda than an independent record.

 

[astarath]

To ask for proofs outside of the largest religion in the world today is kind of counter productive isn't it? A church founded on not just theology but a great amount of history that grew from persecution and almost total annihalation to the most dominant and well known faith of today I would say results as great proof of the existence of a man!
How will we prove the Temujin and Alexander existed? Because people tell the story of their existence. That truly is what the bible is it is a telling of the history of the nation of israel straight from the recreation to the coming of Christ.

 

[love]

If God almighty has blinded you who am I, a mere mortal, to remove the veil. According to the writings of Jesus' followers He did many things not to draw attention to Himself. He told many of the people He healed to tell no one, He spoke in parables often. He said this generation will seek a sign. Christianity is based on faith in a loving, forgiving God.
But for the sake of debate, if we eliminated the effect that the name Jesus Christ had on the HISTORY of the world, we would have to rewrite 2000 years of history.

 

[Mister Emu]

Yes, there is a passage by Josephus that speaks of a Jesus Christ but this passage is widely accepted by scholars as being a forgery

It is widely accepted as having been tampered with. If I have read correctly many believe there is an a base which (I believe Eusubius(sp)) exaggerated upon, given this base sharing the same style of writing as the rest of Josephus.

The brief notice in Tacitus Annals xv.44 mentions only his title, Christus, and his execution in Judea by order of Pontius Pilatus.

Oh come on...

Nor is there any reason to believe that Tacitus bases this on independent information

Can you point to a reason to believe the contrary?

You haven't responded to either Josephus's quote, nor the Talmud

 

[Mister_T]

A lot of history is based off of one or two documents. As many have pointed out, Jesus has a few.

Jesus should not be treated differently than any other historical figure.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

A lot of history is based off of one or two documents. As many have pointed out, Jesus has a few.

Jesus should not be treated differently than any other historical figure.

I agree. Ideally, he shouldn't be treated differently. However, more attention is paid to him because of certain claims of his teachings being the "only" way to salvation.



That's a big claim. And for that, Jesus' story can and should be scrutinized more thoroughly. As we've seen on these boards and elsewhere, such close scrutiny tends to find a LOT of varying interpretations on his life and his legacy.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Mister_T]

I agree. Ideally, he shouldn't be treated differently. However, more attention is paid to him because of certain claims of his teachings being the "only" way to salvation.



That's a big claim. And for that, Jesus' story can and should be scrutinized more thoroughly. As we've seen on these boards and elsewhere, such close scrutiny tends to find a LOT of varying interpretations on his life and his legacy.



Peace,
Mystic

Yes, but the question at hand is whether or not he even existed. Not his life style or his miracles.

I'd say that there's ample proof that such a man existed in our history.

 

[pladecalvo]

It is widely accepted as having been tampered with. If I have read correctly many believe there is an a base which (I believe Eusubius(sp)) exaggerated upon, given this base sharing the same style of writing as the rest of Josephus.


Oh come on...

Can you point to a reason to believe the contrary?

You haven't responded to either Josephus's quote, nor the Talmud

I think I responded regarding Josephus. All other references to jesus come either from Chistian sources and are therefore biased or from documents 100-200 years after his death. Heresay! Nobody had even heard of Jesus until the second century. I still say that if he existed, if he was a worker of miracles, if he was tried and execute by Pilate, someone would have recorded it at the time it happened, not 100 years later.

If you examine the events of the crucifixtion, the sky turned black but (outside of the bible)nobody considered this worthy of note. The graves opened up and zombies walked the streets, again no non-christian writer noticed or considered it important enough to record the event.