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Where is the soul?
- Thread starter KeithH
- Start date
St Giordano Bruno
Well-Known Member
Soul is just "subjective reality" or an illusion you feel you are the centre of the universe and everything is centered around you where conditions in the universe permit its existence and it is nowhere in particular other than just a critical phase of universe's evolution
Pegg wrote:
Maybe not quite so simple... What is life force? Any cell biologist you ask will tell you that what makes a living thing different to a non-living thing is certain chemical reactions. That is what life is based on. Death is just the cessation of these reactions.
So, to speak of the soul as a life force is simply to substitute one word for another, without describing what either word means.
Odion:
The soul is "neither here nor there"? I'm not sure how I could take this remark seriously, unless I construe it as deliberate obfuscation.
Alex G.:
You are essentially re-interpreting the word "soul" to have a more metaphorical, cultural meaning, which is fine. What I'm interested in though, is the religious idea of the soul as the means by which we survive our physical bodies. In other words, the soul defined as whatever is left after we die.
In the naturalistic approach, of course, there is no such thing. We *are* our physical bodies, so when our bodies die, our personality, moral judgment, emotional state, etc., cease to exist - just as switching off a computer causes all the functions of that computer to cease existing.
If something about us survives our death, then that something must inhabit our bodies while we are alive. So, where exactly in our bodies does it reside?
Maybe not quite so simple... What is life force? Any cell biologist you ask will tell you that what makes a living thing different to a non-living thing is certain chemical reactions. That is what life is based on. Death is just the cessation of these reactions.
So, to speak of the soul as a life force is simply to substitute one word for another, without describing what either word means.
Odion:
The soul is "neither here nor there"? I'm not sure how I could take this remark seriously, unless I construe it as deliberate obfuscation.
Alex G.:
You are essentially re-interpreting the word "soul" to have a more metaphorical, cultural meaning, which is fine. What I'm interested in though, is the religious idea of the soul as the means by which we survive our physical bodies. In other words, the soul defined as whatever is left after we die.
In the naturalistic approach, of course, there is no such thing. We *are* our physical bodies, so when our bodies die, our personality, moral judgment, emotional state, etc., cease to exist - just as switching off a computer causes all the functions of that computer to cease existing.
If something about us survives our death, then that something must inhabit our bodies while we are alive. So, where exactly in our bodies does it reside?
How does Genesis define a soul?
At what point did Adam become a living soul?
-See Genesis 2v7
Adam, became a living soul, 'after' Adam received the breath of life.
No where in Scripture does it say that Adam 'came to have' a soul,
or that Adam 'came to possess' a soul.
Without breath Adam was not alive meaning Adam was not a living soul.
At death, without breath, Adam became a dead soul or lifeless soul or person.
Adam did not exist before he was created.
At death Adam ceased to exist.
Only by way of a resurrection back to life can a person again become a living soul. The prophet Daniel [12vs2,13] looked forward to the dead being awakened on resurrection morning, so to speak, during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth when the majority of mankind will be brought back to life to live again right here on earth.
Those few of Rev [20v6; 5vs9,10; 14v4] are bought from earth [resurrected to heaven] to reign with Jesus for a thousand years over the earth.
Then at death, if consciousness is soul, then wouldn't the soul be unconscious according to Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10 ?
Pegg:
OK, but where is it? In our lungs? In our hearts? Livers? Brains?
mitchellmckain:
You are basically saying that the soul does not exist in any sense we are familiar with, but in some sense that we have no observational access to. Well, how do you know? Indeed, how do you know that the soul is imperishable? Do you even have an idea of what the soul is?
I'm assuming, if you're a physicist, that you're not the sort to simply take the Bible's word about these things. So, what good reason is there to suppose that this poorly defined entity exists, and that human behavior isn't simply the product of neural processes (which we do, after all, know are responsible for human cognition!)
Note that you could fall back on your idea to argue for the existence of just about anything. Unicorns don't exist in normal space-time? Fine, then they must exist in some way that escapes the laws of physics. Fairies? Leprechauns? God himself? Same thing.
Boethiah:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Until theologians come up with a cogent definition of the soul, discussion about its spatial whereabouts are bound to be confused.
....
The concept of the soul is an anachronistic one. In times past, it made a lot of sense for people to suppose that personality, emotion, etc., were caused by some unobservable person-within-a-person. After all, how could the brain, which was then just seen as a useless lump of grey meat, possibly explain thoughts and emotions? How ludicrous!
But today we know better. We know that the brain is the most complex structure ever observed in the universe. We are beginning to understand how it gives rise to cognition, emotion and, indeed, consciousness. Why, then, is there any room left for this concept of the "soul" as an actual entity, as opposed to a metaphor?
OK, but where is it? In our lungs? In our hearts? Livers? Brains?
mitchellmckain:
You are basically saying that the soul does not exist in any sense we are familiar with, but in some sense that we have no observational access to. Well, how do you know? Indeed, how do you know that the soul is imperishable? Do you even have an idea of what the soul is?
I'm assuming, if you're a physicist, that you're not the sort to simply take the Bible's word about these things. So, what good reason is there to suppose that this poorly defined entity exists, and that human behavior isn't simply the product of neural processes (which we do, after all, know are responsible for human cognition!)
Note that you could fall back on your idea to argue for the existence of just about anything. Unicorns don't exist in normal space-time? Fine, then they must exist in some way that escapes the laws of physics. Fairies? Leprechauns? God himself? Same thing.
Boethiah:
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Until theologians come up with a cogent definition of the soul, discussion about its spatial whereabouts are bound to be confused.
....
The concept of the soul is an anachronistic one. In times past, it made a lot of sense for people to suppose that personality, emotion, etc., were caused by some unobservable person-within-a-person. After all, how could the brain, which was then just seen as a useless lump of grey meat, possibly explain thoughts and emotions? How ludicrous!
But today we know better. We know that the brain is the most complex structure ever observed in the universe. We are beginning to understand how it gives rise to cognition, emotion and, indeed, consciousness. Why, then, is there any room left for this concept of the "soul" as an actual entity, as opposed to a metaphor?
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KeithH, not Pegg, but if I may take the liberty to mention that I made a post on 1/11/11 under: after-death life....are we all equal? about the 'spirit' that I would like your comments.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Then you are slowly starting to realize how pointing to a location for the soul is a futile exercise - talking about the soul is not the same thing as talking about your car, nor your favourite DVD. I notice how you left out the explanation of my words though, and concentrated only on one part of my post.
Perhaps because it's something you feel you can pick apart at as it seems "evasive", perhaps not.
In time, maybe you will come to understand what neither here nor there truly means. Or maybe not. Who really knows? I'm not here to convince you of whether or not it exists, I just gave you my opinion. You are free to agree or disagree with it. It does not affect me one bit.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
I think that perhaps Nico meant consciousness as in big-c Consciousness, which is something different from little-c consciousness?
Apparently posts only appear for four days.
I put a reply for you, so you can return to Today's post
Thank you for your interest
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Ezekiel 18:4 "Look! All the soulsto me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the sonto me they belong. The soul that is sinningit itself will die"
The living body is a soul. If you are alive, you are a soul....if you die, you area dead soul.
The living body is a soul. If you are alive, you are a soul....if you die, you area dead soul.
kowalskil
Member
I see some inconsistency in the above. The first sentence states that "a soul" is a spiritual entity. Accepting this, your attempt to identify its location in the material world makes no sense to me.
Ludwik
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Where? It is in the substratum that makes up the foundational rules of grammar.
What does it do? (1) It divides the neurological processes of "memory" from incoming sensory data. (2) It places the point of that division into social and cosmological context through symbolic forms.
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doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Everything. Grammar is that in which we live, move and have our being.
Odion:
Regardless of the mystical properties the soul may have, it most certainly seems to have the property of location. The soul may not be a material object like a DVD or a car, but it clearly resides within a person's physical body. My soul is not currently in China, or Australia. It is here, in my body. Do you dispute this? If not, then my question remains: where, exactly, in my physical body does it reside?
"In time, maybe you will come to understand what neither here nor there truly means. Or maybe not. Who really knows? I'm not here to convince you of whether or not it exists, I just gave you my opinion. You are free to agree or disagree with it. It does not affect me one bit."
Do you really understand what "neither here nor there" truly means?
Regardless of the mystical properties the soul may have, it most certainly seems to have the property of location. The soul may not be a material object like a DVD or a car, but it clearly resides within a person's physical body. My soul is not currently in China, or Australia. It is here, in my body. Do you dispute this? If not, then my question remains: where, exactly, in my physical body does it reside?
"In time, maybe you will come to understand what neither here nor there truly means. Or maybe not. Who really knows? I'm not here to convince you of whether or not it exists, I just gave you my opinion. You are free to agree or disagree with it. It does not affect me one bit."
Do you really understand what "neither here nor there" truly means?