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Where should the "I don't know" go?

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I think you are way jumping the gun, here.
Hardly, I'm not even entering the race. :cool:

"Does God Exist?" is an absurdly vague and inarticulate question.
I agree, and that is on those proposing (or asserting) the existence of a god or gods. That is also why "I don't know" remains the only valid answer.

"God" as an idea exists. That idea is "real" (as all ideas are real).
That's a little disingenuous. We're obviously talking about the existence of some kind of real being. Literally anything can exist as an idea, but the effects of ideas are entirely distinct from the effects of something real.

I'm not denying the potential significance, and even positive benefits, that come from various theistic beliefs. I am just saying that they are largely unrelated to the questions of whether anything in those beliefs are actually true in any way (indeed, the influence is often maintained by avoiding those difficult questions). The latter is the focus of the OP and the basis of the "I don't know" starting point. The former doesn't change any of that, though it could certainly be presented as part of an answer to the question of where a person can go from that starting point.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Asking the question in the first place defeats the purpose of contemplating god.

It sounds like a contradiction because it is.

The answer is in just living your life in its entirety; if you're open, you'll notice that these questions present a variety of different answers over time and were never meant to be considered on an empirical or scientific basis at all.

I think that this is a modern reinterpretation. If we look back, as long as we have recorded history of religion, we have examples of scholars taking religious claims literally and trying to evaluate them empirically... e.g. trying to determine the exact date of the creation of the Earth based on their myths/scriptures.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That is literally an example of putting up barriers, unilaterally declaring that (your) God can't be proven to exist.
I am not the one who put up the barriers. They are inherent in the nature of God.

We can prove to ourselves that God exists, but God can never be proven to exist as a fact, like a scientific fact can be proven.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I am not the one who put up the barriers. They are inherent in the nature of God.

We can prove to ourselves that God exists, but God can never be proven to exist as a fact, like a scientific fact can be proven.
You people (Bahais) have certainly proved to themselves of God and his manifestation.
Now you want others to accept that (just as Bahaollah too wanted). He asked his God to punish those who did not believe in him and threatened them by, saying "terrible is the retribution of Allah."
That is the problem with Abrahamic religions, it is obligatory to accept Moses, Jesus, Muhammad or Bahollah's ministry and what they said.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You people (Bahais) have certainly proved to themselves of God and his manifestation.
Now you want others to accept that (just as Bahaollah too wanted).
No, Baha'is do not expect others to believe in Baha'u'llah. That would have to be their choice.

Baha'u'llah probably wanted that, but that is another story.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I agree, and that is on those proposing (or asserting) the existence of a god or gods. That is also why "I don't know" remains the only valid answer.
People can propose anything they want. And they can believe anything they want about it. And they can assert that you should believe it as well. But at that point you have the right to ask them to explain why you should agree with or believe their assertions.

It's actually fairly rare that anyone will assert that we should accept and believe as they do. Yet a lot of people are way too quick to jump the gun on demanding justification, anyway. Usually because they have every intention of rejecting any justification they might receive, or rejecting the proposal all together because they didn't get exactly the kind and amount of justification they demanded.
That's a little disingenuous. We're obviously talking about the existence of some kind of real being.
That's not obvious at all. And anyway, what the heck is a "real being"? By my understanding theism (the philosophical proposition that God/gods exist in some manner that effect humanity) is based on the logical necessity of some unknown/unknowable source enabling the possibility of existence. It does not define that source, nor does it even propose that we could. It is presumed that this mystery source must logically be transcendent of the existence that it enables, and is likely to be "intelligent", but the proposition itself does not require nor address either of these issues.
Literally anything can exist as an idea, but the effects of ideas are entirely distinct from the effects of something real.
Ideas are as real as reality itself. In fact, "reality" IS an idea. Without the idea of reality, NOTHING is real. I think you're trying to claim that objectivity defines reality. And no philosopher anywhere is going to let that stand.
I'm not denying the potential significance, and even positive benefits, that come from various theistic beliefs.
I think, here, you are confusing religious beliefs with theism. These are not the same area of humans thought. It is true that religious conceptions of "God" can be very helpful to people. (Or unhelpful.) But religion is a result of theism, it does not define theism.
I am just saying that they are largely unrelated to the questions of whether anything in those beliefs are actually true in any way (indeed, the influence is often maintained by avoiding those difficult questions).
What is true is that those god-conceptions work for the believers in a useful and positive way. It's why they believe. What is also true is that the mysterious-yet-always possible nature of the 'God' idea make it amazingly versatile and yet still effective for a great many people. And what is also true is that there is no way to determine that 'God' is not possible, or even not probable.
The latter is the focus of the OP and the basis of the "I don't know" starting point. The former doesn't change any of that, though it could certainly be presented as part of an answer to the question of where a person can go from that starting point.
"I don't know" may ultimately be the only answer we humans can honestly give to any question asked. As we can never be truly certain. But once given, we have nowhere else to go. Nothing comes after "I don't know". And therefor no benefit comes if it, either. That's why for me, "I don't know" seems more like it ought to be a starting point, rather than the end point. "I don't know, but ... (I think, or I feel, or I surmise, or I presume, or whatever)". And then see where it takes us.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
We aren't talking about reasoning.

We aren't? *I* am.

We are talking about instinctual intuitions that people have no control over. There are some people who perceive God, and other who don't. Perception is not a rational thing.

I was talking about the starting point for discussion. Someone who "perceives" God can recognize that there are other people who don't, especially if someone they're talking to says so.


If you are out in the forest and a bush starts rustling, and your intuition jumps to the conclusion that it is a wild animal that will attack you, you really are best off running. Here is why. In most cases is will not be a dangerous animal and your instinct is mistake; however, there is no harm done by running away. On the flip side, if you tell yourself, "Don't be scared, it's probably just a small harmless animal or the wind" when in fact it IS a dangerous wild animal, by not running, you are toast. So yes, our intuition evolved because it helps us avoid harm and death, even though it is usually incorrect.

I understand the pressures that led us to have a bias toward Type I error over Type II error. Still, we can generally recognize that we are talking about bias and error. We're also talking about a difference in treatment of some errors versus others: very few people argue that their feeling of dread in a dark basement means there's really a monster down there, but there's no shortage of theists who argue that the "feeling in their heart" is a sign that God is real.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If you think that the instinct to assume agency is reasoning, I don't know what to tell you.
I think we're talking past each other. I'm talking about the starting point for discussion between two people with differing viewpoints.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think we're talking past each other. I'm talking about the starting point for discussion between two people with differing viewpoints.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
My post when I entered the discussion was to say that in cases like this where science cannot provide an answer, such as whether God exists or not, it is reasonable to trust one's intuition, even though intuition is not alway reliable, because intuition is adaptive.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
My post when I entered the discussion was to say that in cases like this where science cannot provide an answer, such as whether God exists or not, it is reasonable to trust one's intuition, even though intuition is not alway reliable, because intuition is adaptive.
But this thread is about where to place a starting point for a discussion with someone else.

If you have intuition about something, fine... but if you're talking to someone who doesn't share that intuition or beliefs, the best point to start is where everyone in the conversation has common ground.

In a conversation where not everyone has the same intuition as you, your intuition is not the starting point.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No, Baha'is do not expect others to believe in Baha'u'llah. That would have to be their choice.
Baha'u'llah probably wanted that, but that is another story.
Why did Bahaollah want the whole world to accept him as the latest 'manifestation' of Allah? He wrote to all Kings, Queens and Heads of governments to accept him as one who brings the latest instructions from Allah (Of course, none accepted him. Only the office of the British Queen Victoria acknowledged receiving his letter). And why did he pray to Allah to punish those who did not accept his ministry? Ego? Monetary benefits? Why was he cursing/threatening people who did not accept him? Was he of sound mind or had some psychological problem - narcissism, megalomaniacal tendencies, or was it just a scam? Did he give any evidence of existence of his Allah or himself being the latest messenger?
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But this thread is about where to place a starting point for a discussion with someone else.
Threads nototiously meander. I replied to something one person said. I do not typically read every post in a thread. I rely almost 100% on my alert system listing posts where someone has replied to me or posts that its software thinks I would find interesting.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why did Bahaollah want the whole world to accept him as the latest 'manifestation' of Allah?
Because he knew that he was the latest 'manifestation' of Allah.
Did he give any evidence of existence of his Allah or himself being the latest messenger?
Yes, and I have posted that evidence on this forum umpteen million times. Is there any reason why I should post it again?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Because he knew that he was the latest 'manifestation' of Allah.
Yes, and I have posted that evidence on this forum umpteen million times. Is there any reason why I should post it again?
He gave no evidence for his Allah nor for his being a messenger of Allah (nothing strange, Jesus and Muhammad also had none).
How do we know that Bahaollah was really a good person or he just acted to be?
Many seen as 'good people' turn out later to be scammers and cheats.
Bahaollah sure ensured that his progeny will lead Bahais (till his line lasted). Bahaism was a family enterprise.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Threads nototiously meander. I replied to something one person said. I do not typically read every post in a thread. I rely almost 100% on my alert system listing posts where someone has replied to me or posts that its software thinks I would find interesting.
This line of discussion started with you responding to my OP. :shrug:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
He gave no evidence for his Allah nor for his being a messenger of Allah
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”

1. His own Self, who He was, His character (His qualities)

2. His Revelation, what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)

3. His Writings are additional evidence because they show who He was as a person, what He taught about God and other things, and what accomplished on His mission.
How do we know that Bahaollah was really a good person or he just acted to be?
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
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