• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Wheres the debate on whether we teach creationism or evolution in public schools?

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
How does teaching evolution benefit the student in any tangible way? Couldn't this student be a brilliant doctor (i.e., heal or help many people), a brilliant veterinarian (i.e., healing or helping animals), a brilliant chemist, a brilliant geologist, etc. Can you name how teaching the student will tangibly benefit the student or others? (The only reason seems to be to keep them from believing in God, but in that case, evolution would of course be better taught in a religion class than a science class.)

Being the central Theory of one of the three core subjects of Science; Physics, Chemistry and Biology, the Theory of Evolution is an essential part of the overall science curriculum.
Now, do I really have to explain to you why we should teach science to kids? :sarcastic
 

Tamar

I am Jewish.
Creationism has no place in public schools. All I want my kids to know about creationism is that it is a fundamentalist/evangelical Christian belief and not worth the time it takes away from other subjects in a classroom. If I want my child being taught religious beliefs in school I would send them to a religious school, which I do during the week. Public school is secular and needs to stay that way.
 

SincereDebater

New Member
jarofthoughts,
You didn't answer the question. Most university students do not study evolution at all. I attended a major university and earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, yet took no courses that touched on Darwinian evolution. I was taught Kirchoff's Voltage loop principle, and with it I was able to analyze and design circuits. I took a writing course and became a better writer in the process. Can you answer the question: What tangible benefit does teaching students Darwinian evolution produce? If you attended a college or university, did you study evolution in any of your courses.?

Tamar,
I agree with your point that Creationism shouldn't be taught in public schools, at least as science. You also didn't answer the question: What tangible benefits does teaching evolution produce?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
jarofthoughts,
You didn't answer the question. Most university students do not study evolution at all. I attended a major university and earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, yet took no courses that touched on Darwinian evolution. I was taught Kirchoff's Voltage loop principle, and with it I was able to analyze and design circuits. I took a writing course and became a better writer in the process. Can you answer the question: What tangible benefit does teaching students Darwinian evolution produce? If you attended a college or university, did you study evolution in any of your courses.?

Evolution is generally taught in elementary school (at least in Norway).
At the university you get to choose your own subjects, meaning that unless you took a class in which Evolution was relevant you wouldn't be taught that there.
Why you expect Evolution to come up in a class about electrical engineering, I have no idea... :sarcastic

Again, do I really have to explain to you why we teach science to kids?
 

SincereDebater

New Member
fantom prophane,

Does this mean you believe no brilliant doctors (meaning one who has cured many people or produced drugs or knowledge leading to their cure) nor brilliant veterinarians (meaning a person who has cured may animals or produced drugs or knowledge leading to their cure) believe in creationism? Regarding doctors, the director of the National Institutes of Health, Francis Collins, is a devoted Christian and has written the book "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
jarofthoughts,
You didn't answer the question. Most university students do not study evolution at all. I attended a major university and earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, yet took no courses that touched on Darwinian evolution. I was taught Kirchoff's Voltage loop principle, and with it I was able to analyze and design circuits. I took a writing course and became a better writer in the process. Can you answer the question: What tangible benefit does teaching students Darwinian evolution produce?
Applications to electrical engineering....
http://www.mrc.uidaho.edu/mrc/people/knoren/GAs/B-159_paper.PDF
http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/pub-archive/173h/0173 (Lohn).pdf
 
Last edited:

SincereDebater

New Member
jarofthoughts,

Is teaching Darwinian evolution ever "relevant". Once again, you couldn't list any tangible benefits. Darwinian Evolution is a circular theory, sort of like you need to learn it to understand it. You label it science, but the point is that any other "science" has produced tangible benefits to society: knowledge and understanding of the human body has helped doctors cure patients, knowledge and understanding of atoms has allowed chemists to produce useful materials, knowledge and understanding of electromagnetics has allowed engineers to create radios and televisions.

Darwinian evolution appears to have produced no such tangible benefits, although it has been around a long time. This belies its title as "science".

Unless you can state a tangible benefit, then that's at least one vote for no tangible benefits. It will only make sense for me to respond again if you at least attempt to list a tangible benefit.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
jarofthoughts,

Is teaching Darwinian evolution ever "relevant". Once again, you couldn't list any tangible benefits. Darwinian Evolution is a circular theory, sort of like you need to learn it to understand it. You label it science, but the point is that any other "science" has produced tangible benefits to society: knowledge and understanding of the human body has helped doctors cure patients, knowledge and understanding of atoms has allowed chemists to produce useful materials, knowledge and understanding of electromagnetics has allowed engineers to create radios and televisions.

Darwinian evolution appears to have produced no such tangible benefits, although it has been around a long time. This belies its title as "science".

Unless you can state a tangible benefit, then that's at least one vote for no tangible benefits. It will only make sense for me to respond again if you at least attempt to list a tangible benefit.
Check this out.....
Evolutionary algorithm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

outhouse

Atheistically
jarofthoughts,

Is teaching Darwinian evolution ever "relevant". Once again, you couldn't list any tangible benefits. Darwinian Evolution is a circular theory, sort of like you need to learn it to understand it. You label it science, but the point is that any other "science" has produced tangible benefits to society: knowledge and understanding of the human body has helped doctors cure patients, knowledge and understanding of atoms has allowed chemists to produce useful materials, knowledge and understanding of electromagnetics has allowed engineers to create radios and televisions.

Darwinian evolution appears to have produced no such tangible benefits, although it has been around a long time. This belies its title as "science".

Unless you can state a tangible benefit, then that's at least one vote for no tangible benefits. It will only make sense for me to respond again if you at least attempt to list a tangible benefit.


every heard of biomechanics? maybe biochemistry?


modern medicine ring a bell???
 
Last edited:

outhouse

Atheistically
jarofthoughts,

Is teaching Darwinian evolution ever "relevant". Once again, you couldn't list any tangible benefits. Darwinian Evolution is a circular theory, sort of like you need to learn it to understand it. You label it science, but the point is that any other "science" has produced tangible benefits to society: knowledge and understanding of the human body has helped doctors cure patients, knowledge and understanding of atoms has allowed chemists to produce useful materials, knowledge and understanding of electromagnetics has allowed engineers to create radios and televisions.

Darwinian evolution appears to have produced no such tangible benefits, although it has been around a long time. This belies its title as "science".

Unless you can state a tangible benefit, then that's at least one vote for no tangible benefits. It will only make sense for me to respond again if you at least attempt to list a tangible benefit.


this is a very simplistic view that screams I DONT WANT TO KNOW, I DONT WANT TO LEARN, i DONT WANT TO ADVANCE.

What you do not even realize is ToE is taught as higher learning in every major university around the world. But for some reason maybe you want your country to lag behind everyone else academically :facepalm:

your post is sort of embarrassing
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
fantom prophane,

Does this mean you believe no brilliant doctors (meaning one who has cured many people or produced drugs or knowledge leading to their cure) nor brilliant veterinarians (meaning a person who has cured may animals or produced drugs or knowledge leading to their cure) believe in creationism? Regarding doctors, the director of the National Institutes of Health, Francis Collins, is a devoted Christian and has written the book "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief".
Define creationism.




Francis Collins is a brilliant scientist who believes in “God”, there are many brilliant scientists who believe in “God”.


What I said, and I will say it again is that I doubt you could be a brilliant doctor, or a brilliant veterinarian without a solid understanding of evolution. You certainly could not be a brilliant biologist, or a brilliant geneticists, or even a brilliant environmental scientists without a firm grasp of the concepts of evolution.


I would not call Francis Collins a creationist. And I am sure that Francis Collins has a firm understanding of the theory of evolution. It would be absolutely impossible for him to have achieved what he has if he did not have a firm understanding of the theory of evolution.


You asked what the tangible benefit would be for teaching Evolution and I told you. You cannot pursue a career in genetics without being educated about the theory of evolution. Francis Collins could not have become a geneticist without being educated in evolution. Ken Miller could not have pursued a career in cell biology without understanding evolution. This is just a simple undeniable fact. It has nothing at all to do with belief or disbelief in “God”.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
sadly, i think you do

Like you said, it's kind of embarrassing for him that he doesn't already know this, hence why I asked twice... :facepalm:

jarofthoughts,

Is teaching Darwinian evolution ever "relevant". Once again, you couldn't list any tangible benefits. Darwinian Evolution is a circular theory, sort of like you need to learn it to understand it. You label it science, but the point is that any other "science" has produced tangible benefits to society: knowledge and understanding of the human body has helped doctors cure patients, knowledge and understanding of atoms has allowed chemists to produce useful materials, knowledge and understanding of electromagnetics has allowed engineers to create radios and televisions.

Darwinian evolution appears to have produced no such tangible benefits, although it has been around a long time. This belies its title as "science".

Unless you can state a tangible benefit, then that's at least one vote for no tangible benefits. It will only make sense for me to respond again if you at least attempt to list a tangible benefit.

These are things you should know already, or, that you could have figured out with about two minutes of research, but sure, I'll provide a few examples of the practical application of the Theory of Evolution, since you appear unable to figure them out yourself.

Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture.
Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields.
Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy.
Source and further reading: CA215: Practical uses of evolution.

And remember these are just examples.

In addition to this, regardless of what kind of job or education they aspire to later, it is important to teach kids science (Science in general, not just ToE.) because of their personal development. Science is the great enabler of humanity, showing us that while the universe is largely unknown, it is knowable, and science has provided humanity with a level of control over our lives and our environment that has no precedence in the history of this planet. Learning how science works helps dis-spell the feeling that science is magic and that what our scientists do is somehow shrouded in mystery.
Not to mention that it does something to you as a person to know about who and what you really are, where you and everything you see around you came from, and how it all works.
 
Last edited:

camanintx

Well-Known Member
How does teaching evolution benefit the student in any tangible way? Couldn't this student be a brilliant doctor (i.e., heal or help many people), a brilliant veterinarian (i.e., healing or helping animals), a brilliant chemist, a brilliant geologist, etc. Can you name how teaching the student will tangibly benefit the student or others? (The only reason seems to be to keep them from believing in God, but in that case, evolution would of course be better taught in a religion class than a science class.)
"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" -- Theodosius Dobzhansky

I'd also like to point out that Dobzhansky was a Russian Orthodox Christian.
 

camanintx

Well-Known Member
I attended a major university and earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, yet took no courses that touched on Darwinian evolution.
You completed 12 years of primary education and four years of secondary education and never had a class that discussed biology? How did you do that?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The thought that he is lying occurs to me.
Actually, having gone through both I can understand how it can happen. Biology was never mandatory in my high school, and In the university I went to there were many majors that only required a brief brush with natural science, if that. For instance, the undergraduate requirements in the college of Science and Engineering may only require a token natural science course or two, which could include climatology, nutrition, or geography, none of which touch on evolution.
 
Top