"Where's the evidence?" Ask and ye shall receive!

[Call_of_the_Wild]

:cigar:

 

[McBell]

:cigar:

Most intelligent post you have had all thread....

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Most intelligent post you have had all thread....

That may have been the most intelligent post I had all thread..but one of the most intelligent choices you've ever made on here was to simply stay out of this particular discussion..because you've been on the receiving end of many intellectual spankings by me.

 

[McBell]

That may have been the most intelligent post I had all thread..but one of the most intelligent choices you've ever made on here was to simply stay out of this particular discussion..because you've been on the receiving end of many intellectual spankings by me.

:biglaugh:

only in your own mind have you intellectually spanked ANYONE on this forum, ever.

:biglaugh:

 

[Riverwolf]

Show me exactly where either of those links explained the absolute origin of consciousness, please. As a matter of fact, paste it on here. I have no interest in reading that long and drawn out article or whatever it is.

They were provided so that YOU could read and criticize.

 

[Riverwolf]

New thread on mind/body dualism here: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-evolution-mind-body-dualism.html#post3808688

My apologies, Alceste.

 

[Alceste]

New thread on mind/body dualism here: http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-evolution-mind-body-dualism.html#post3808688

My apologies, Alceste.

Thanks, riverwolf. Much appreciated!

So anybody else looking for evidence of anything?

 

[Daemon Sophic]

If its not too much trouble, could you link some nice articles on the evolutionary possibilities for the development of "complex structures", such as bacterial flagellar motors or the mammalian eye.
Such items are often cited by the ignorant as 'proof' against evolution. Your thread can be a nice goto location for such useful information.

 

[Alceste]

If its not too much trouble, could you link some nice articles on the evolutionary possibilities for the development of "complex structures", such as bacterial flagellar motors or the mammalian eye.
Such items are often cited by the ignorant as 'proof' against evolution. Your thread can be a nice goto location for such useful information.

Sure. The most compelling direct evidence for that question comes from foetal development. We don't start out as a fully developed microscopic homunculus of a person that just gets larger and larger. In a way, the story of human evolution can be witnessed every time a new person is conceived. We have a tail for a little while in the womb. We have little flippers, like a tadpole, before we have arms. I think we're even covered with fur for a bit, but I've got to check that one.

In utero, two cells become four, four become eight, eight become sixteen, etc. Eventually some new cells start to specialize in their functions, and you can literally observe eyes forming out of nothing, passing through all the different stages of eyeball evolution from a light sensitive cluster of cells to a relatively sophisticated orb.

Of course, DNA is driving the bus, telling which cells to do what, so we need to know how a DNA string can grow and / or change over time.

I'm on my phone, but I'll be happy to find some related research when I've got the time to sit down at a computer. Great question!

 

[Alceste]

Please could a moderator transfer this to the Mind/body dualism thread as I'm not sure how to do it? Thank you.
.
.

Go into "edit post", select the text, copy (ctrl+c). Go to the other thread, click reply, and paste (ctrl+v). Then kindly delete the post from this thread. The sooner the better, since the person you are talking to will certainly reply here instead of the appropriate thread and the hijacking will continue.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Go into "edit post", select the text, copy (ctrl+c). Go to the other thread, click reply, and paste (ctrl+v). Then kindly delete the post from this thread. The sooner the better, since the person you are talking to will certainly reply here instead of the appropriate thread and the hijacking will continue.

What are you, psychic?

You are claiming that consciousness is some kind ethereal entity that has existence outside the corporeal form. I’m saying the brain is the cause and consciousness is an effect.

Ok, and I am asking you to give me a scenario at which the brain can be naturally created and give rise to consciousness. If consciousness can only exist in the brain, then give me a possible world at which a scientist can create the brain from scratch, and also create consciousness to occupy the brain.

I just want a possible world scenario.

It is empirically demonstrable that consciousness is dependent upon the brain.

Not dependent, but correlated. No one knows what happens when you die, so for all you or I know, we could all succeed our physical deaths. And not only that, but it isn't empirically demonstrable that the mind gets its origins from the brain. That is what you are attempting to try to prove...so that can't be the conclusion.

A brain malfunction such as an epileptic seizure causes body malfunctions, and Alzheimer’s disease interferes with reasoning and memory.

When you are driving in a car, you are using the car for transportation. If the car stops running for mechanical reasons, then this particular method of transporation is effecting your motion. So when the car stops, you stop. That doesn't mean that you cant get out of the car and begin walking. If you decide to do that, then it becomes quite obvious that the "you" and the "car" are not the same thing.

While that is absolutely undeniable there is no evidence whatsoever that consciousness can exist outside or beyond the body.

Actually, there is. If it can be demonstrated that the brain is an insufficient explanation as to how consciousness could have naturally originated, then that would be a defeater of mind/body naturalism.

I thought I’d made it perfectly clear that they are not the same, and cannot be the same, but brains enable consciousness. A coil rotating in a magnetic field induces an electric current, but neither the coil nor the magnet is the electricity that is generated; the latter is identified by the former but it is not identical with it.

Again, we are talking origins. I would like to know how could there have been a complete state of unconsciousness and then suddenly we have consciousness. You say it is because of the developement of the brain, and my next question is how could a brain itself produce consciousness (origins).

If I asked you to explain the origins of your computer, the very computer you are using to discuss this subject...and there is one catch: the answer that you give me has to be within the computer, nothing external can be used for the answer...you wouldn't be able to give me an answer now, would you? No, because you recognize that the origin of the computer has to be external..as nothing can be used to explain the origin of its own domain.

You are telling me that the origin of consciousness was derived from the brain..I can't even think of a possible world at which a intelligent designer (a human being) can NATURALLY get consciousness into the brain, even if he was able to create the brain from pre-existing material, so I am even more puzzled as to how consciousness can be originated naturally with NO intelligent design, just the brain.

Do tell.

Even disregarding the wealth of empirical data on twins’ studies etc, there is nothing logically preventing one individual from having another individual’s precise subjective experiences.

Sooo, how can YOU experience MY trip to Las Vegas?? Please explain.

I'm saying the brains enables consciousness. The material world began to form, and brains are material stuff, therefore brains began to form and thus consciousness began to form. Hence matter was prior to consciousness, and personhood develops with the formation of consciousness.

You are fast-fowarding to the effect without explaining the process at which the effect was caused. That is the meat and potatoes of the issue.

 

[fantome profane]

The sooner the better, since the person you are talking to will certainly reply here instead of the appropriate thread and the hijacking will continue.

What are you, psychic?

Apparently he is. Please take this to the other thread created specifically for this question. This nonsense can be dealt with there.

 

[Quintessence]

Cottage, I went ahead and moved your post. More than likely, Call's post will be moved as well.

 

[Debater Slayer]

***Mod Post***

Some posts in this thread have been moved/deleted.

Please refrain from making off-topic posts and keep Rule 4 in mind while posting. Any further off-topic posts will be moved/deleted and their authors moderated.

4. Spam and Advertising/Off Topic Posts
Usually described as unsolicited or undesired electronic messages. There are many types of electronic spam:
1)Posting advertisements, unsolicited e-mail or private messaging, promoting other sites or items for sale. These will be deleted on sight and the poster may be banned.
2)Advertising of sites and forums that might appear to be in competition to RF requires the permission of an administrator.
3)Signatures are allowed to contain links, but not to commercial sites unless there is administrator approval. This applies to home page links as well.
4)Posting your own material copied from other forums or anywhere else on the web may also be considered a form of spam if not done in an engaging manner that is aimed at generating discussion or debate. Length of copied material should be limited, but a bit more allowance of length is given to the original posts of threads compared to response posts.
5)Posts that are judged to deviate significantly from the thread topic, or that do not conform to the tone or intent of the thread, may be edited or deleted.

 

[Desert Snake]

Anyways, my question is about the Big Bang theory, explain it.

Btw, I don't believe in the Big Bang theory.

 

[Alceste]

Thank you, mods. You're the bomb.

 

[Alceste]

Anyways, my question is about the Big Bang theory, explain it.

Btw, I don't believe in the Big Bang theory.

Another great question! I'll have to do some research and get back to you. Physics is not my strong suit, but I look forward to learning more.

 

[dust1n]

You want me to explain to you something that happens after consciousness originates. I am asking questions of origins...how did consciousness get here in the first place? Please explain that to me. If God doesn't exist, then this would have had to occur naturally, and I just can't see how this could happen naturally under any circumstances.

Sure. Consciousness isn't there, until a child grows up to be two or three. Do you remember your own birth? Of course not. A brain develops (with the rest of the body) from a single cell.

It's really hard to take this seriously. I do find it sad that there is one less person interesting in studying biochemistry, or obstetrics, or genetics, as oppose to resigning to not be able to see and then resigning with God for an answer.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Sure. Consciousness isn't there, until a child grows up to be two or three. Do you remember your own birth? Of course not. A brain develops (with the rest of the body) from a single cell.

It's really hard to take this seriously. I do find it sad that there is one less person interesting in studying biochemistry, or obstetrics, or genetics, as oppose to resigning to not be able to see and then resigning with God for an answer.

You claim it is hard to take seriously, yet you didn't answer my question. You didn't even touch on the origin consciousness..I would expect someone to say "it's really hard to take this seriously" after they've answered the unserious question.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You claim it is hard to take seriously, yet you didn't answer my question. You didn't even touch on the origin consciousness..I would expect someone to say "it's really hard to take this seriously" after they've answered the unserious question.

Mind if I ask you a question?

What is it about consciousness, specifically, that makes it so special that it cannot potentially arise out of natural, physical, chemical processes?