Which evolved first, tendons or bones

[osgart]

As awful as it is, the human body reveals creative intention. Nothing useful had to adapt to survive, it is by intention that adaptation occurs.

Some weirdly existing creative force exists, it's just not what anybody would expect. Far from perfect or ideal the intelligence is. I would say it's bound to the natural world.

Science is a human struggle to know, it's perfectly fallible in explanations. To think that people have this infallibility attitude towards science, I think is absurd.

 

[sayak83]

Giving command for something to born to existence doesn't mean it wasn't planned for.otherwise how such things make logic.

Here is how.
Where did bone come from?: An overview of its evolution

 

[shunyadragon]

Better to read how cameras were developed than wasting time on how the unconscious nature fashioned the complex eyes.

Totally not relevant to how eyes evolved from simple light sensitive cells to complex eyes, and also how the brain evolved. The above did not evolve in increments from simple light sensitive cells.

It was previous brought to the intention of KenS and you is that the mind has evolved an adaptive ability interpret images regardless of the optical reversal.

The problem remains with the ancient world view of both KenS and you without an academic background in the science of evolution.

 

[shunyadragon]

Giving command for something to born to existence doesn't mean it wasn't planned for.otherwise how such things make logic.

Well, in terms of God it sure does not translate into a fallible human need to invent, design and plan without an omnipotent knowledge of the nature of our physical existence. Your comparing fallible humans to God is egocentrically bizzaro.

 

[Kenny]

No need, you just need an education on the many variations of the eye as they evolved from the simple light sensitive cells. A good science education helps.

That is what I was looking for... they would have to "evolve" at the same time and pretty much instantaneously... otherwise, someone was walking seeing things upside down.

 

[FearGod]

Here is how.
Where did bone come from?: An overview of its evolution

What did you understand from your quoted title, did ligaments and tendons evolved before or all have been evolved simultaneously with bones.

 

[FearGod]

Well, in terms of God it sure does not translate into a fallible human need to invent, design and plan without an omnipotent knowledge of the nature of our physical existence. Your comparing fallible humans to God is egocentrically bizzaro.

You're playing games here, you're dealing with smart people here in the RF, you're showing faith in God while doing the exact opposite.
you believe in the stones, you believe that no need for intelligence and no need for God's wisdom in creating the universe and life.
Your views that God made things to work by magic, like boom boom then that's it, but no, and you know that it doesn't work as you're trying to
shape God as magician, human stays 9 months in the womb to be fabricated, it isn't magic but a complex science.

 

[FearGod]

Totally not relevant to how eyes evolved from simple light sensitive cells to complex eyes, and also how the brain evolved. The above did not evolve in increments from simple light sensitive cells.

It was previous brought to the intention of KenS and you is that the mind has evolved an adaptive ability interpret images regardless of the optical reversal.

The problem remains with the ancient world view of both KenS and you without an academic background in the science of evolution.

We know the answer, random mutations and natural selection, but if you have a better knowledge then you should
inform us exactly how it happened, how the DNA mutated and how the eye evolved simultaneously with the brain
within millions of years that resulted in the complex eyes.

 

[shunyadragon]

And how do you know what's God's ability, from where you got your information about God and for what
he can do and for what he can't?

The question is not God's ability, In fact you are proposing that God needs to plan and design like fallible humans need to.

 

[columbus]

And how do you know what's God's ability, from where you got your information about God and for what
he can do and for what he can't?

I am not claiming to know about or speak for God. That's you and other religionists.
What I said was "God is not a limited human being. He is not subject to the limitations we humans are." You are the one claiming that God is like you.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

We know the answer, random mutations and natural selection, but if you have a better knowledge then you should inform us exactly how it happened, . . .

We understand for the most part how evolution took place concerning the eye. but no one 'knows' everything, but the problem remains you are stuck on the religious agenda of ID,

I need not inform you of anything, I do not spoon feed the ignorant. You need an academic background in the science involved. One problem persists; you asked for how xertain things evolve I game you a simple answer, and you ignore it, and my explanation of the problem of considering the outcome of natural events as random, because they are not. Randomness if it is observed, and nothing in the macro world is observed to be random, the variation is observed to fractal, and it is not causal by its nature.

So why should I explain anything to you when you do not listen nor respond intelligently to facts of the science of evolution.

. . . how the DNA mutated and how the eye evolved simultaneously with the brain within millions of years that resulted in the complex eyes.

First it is not 'within millions of years,' and it is over a period of hundreds of millions of years, if not billions of years.

Simultaneously?!?!?! Observed evolution occurs simultaneously throughout life, and effects which ever organisms benefit opportunistically will evolve has been observed today as it has been for millennia. It has been observed in in individual species on earth 'SO WHAT?,' natural observed genetic drift in DNA provides the opportunity for opportunistic evolution in ALL parts of any organism, without consulting other parts of the organism. The brain has been directly observed to be flexible to changes in other organs such as the eyes.

Again . . .

The lack of an academic background in science, and a religious agenda of ID remains a problem you refuse to address.

 

[FearGod]

The question is not God's ability, In fact you are proposing that God needs to plan and design like fallible humans need to.

Why not? what makes you think that God doesn't have plans and design things accordingly?
What is God? could you please tell me and how did you know the information about God and what
kind of power he has?

 

[FearGod]

I am not claiming to know about or speak for God. That's you and other religionists.
What I said was "God is not a limited human being. He is not subject to the limitations we humans are." You are the one claiming that God is like you.
Tom

No, you're the one describing God the way you want, I don't know what is God exactly other than
the creator of the universe and the life on earth.

 

[FearGod]

We understand for the most part how evolution took place concerning the eye. but no one 'knows' everything, but the problem remains you are stuck on the religious agenda of ID,

I need not inform you of anything, I do not spoon feed the ignorant. You need an academic background in the science involved. One problem persists; you asked for how xertain things evolve I game you a simple answer, and you ignore it, and my explanation of the problem of considering the outcome of natural events as random, because they are not. Randomness if it is observed, and nothing in the macro world is observed to be random, the variation is observed to fractal, and it is not causal by its nature.

So why should I explain anything to you when you do not listen nor respond intelligently to facts of the science of evolution.


First it is not 'within millions of years,' and it is over a period of hundreds of millions of years, if not billions of years.

Simultaneously?!?!?! Observed evolution occurs simultaneously throughout life, and effects which ever organisms benefit opportunistically will evolve has been observed today as it has been for millennia. It has been observed in in individual species on earth 'SO WHAT?,' natural observed genetic drift in DNA provides the opportunity for opportunistic evolution in ALL parts of any organism, without consulting other parts of the organism. The brain has been directly observed to be flexible to changes in other organs such as the eyes.

Again . . .

The lack of an academic background in science, and a religious agenda of ID remains a problem you refuse to address.

The problem that you claim that you know the reality while you're lying, you have repeated multiple times
that you can't explain it because I don't have good knowledge in biology, I don't know why you have interest
in religious forum, there're a lot of forms for scientists like you, so better to waist your time in science than religion.

 

[columbus]

No, you're the one describing God the way you want, I don't know what is God exactly other than
the creator of the universe and the life on earth.

No, I am the one who pointed out that God is not a limited human being. That's all I said.
You keep insisting that God has limitations similar to those of humans. I see no reason to believe such nonsense.
Tom

 

[Nous]

I've only read the first and last page of this thread, but, geez, many of the posters responding here are really unattractively haughty in their dismissiveness of the OP question. It's a legitimate question; I think it's a question that raises important issues that beg for answers. And, in fact, an attempt to answer might lead one at least to a greater sense of wonderment of the processes of evolution, or even to a broader perspective on these processes and the forces at play that are perhaps currently unknown.

It doesn't explain anything to merely assert that bones and tendons “evolved together”. A real explanation begins with a genetic mutation that coded for the production of a protein, then an explanation as to why this protein (or its effect on the organism) was selected for. Unless the bones and tendons and the building of such structures are the products of the same protein (which I suppose is not the case), then the improbability of accidental correlations increases enormously. But, more than that, there is the additional issue of the neural machinery necessary to make bones and tendons functional to an organism--an another dramatic increase in the improbability of accidental occurrences.

The Wikipedia has a very informative article on the evolution of eyes: Evolution of the eye - Wikipedia Nevertheless, more is missing from this account than is elucidated. There is simply no information provided about the genes or proteins whose selection had to have occurred in conjunction with the evolution of eyeballs and which led to the development of the neuronal systems that process the information taken in by the eyeballs, as well as the additional genetic changes and proteins responsible for the muscles that move eyeballs, and that perform the difficult function of maintaining the integrity of transparent membranes, and so forth. It's even more astounding (and improbable as an accident) that "[c]omplex, image-forming eyes have evolved independently some 50 to 100 times.[1]"

I am not at all convinced that we currently know of all the forces at work in which the evolution of complex, functioning biological organisms occurs.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The point is the flexible movements of the bone which is connected in away that shows a design and not the outcome of random mutations and natural selections.

Are you suggesting that we throw out evolutionary theory because some people just can't see how natural selection working on genetic variation is up to the task?

Suppose for a moment that life was created as we find it by an intelligent designer. It also means that that intelligent designer took great pains to lead us to a false scientific theory that we have not been able to falsify - one which unifies and accounts for the available fossil, genetic, and biogeographical evidence, includes a mechanism that accounts for the diversity and commonality of all life on earth, is falsifiable by virtue of predicting what kinds of things can and cannot be found in nature but has never been falsified, and has led to technological advances that have improved the human condition, for an idea like creationism that can do none of that?

Why would we toss out a scientific theory that can do all of that because somebody else just can't see it? We collect ideas that work and toss out the useless ones.

 

[FearGod]

No, I am the one who pointed out that God is not a limited human being. That's all I said.
You keep insisting that God has limitations similar to those of humans. I see no reason to believe such nonsense.
Tom

How do you know what God is?

 

[FearGod]

Are you suggesting that we throw out evolutionary theory because some people just can't see how natural selection working on genetic variation is up to the task?

Suppose for a moment that life was created as we find it by an intelligent designer. It also means that that intelligent designer took great pains to lead us to a false scientific theory that we have not been able to falsify - one which unifies and accounts for the available fossil, genetic, and biogeographical evidence, includes a mechanism that accounts for the diversity and commonality of all life on earth, is falsifiable by virtue of predicting what kinds of things can and cannot be found in nature but has never been falsified, and has led to technological advances that have improved the human condition, for an idea like creationism that can do none of that?

Why would we toss out a scientific theory that can do all of that because somebody else just can't see it? We collect ideas that work and toss out the useless ones.

I didn't refute evolution, if I did then show me where.

 

[columbus]

out a scientific theory that can do all of that because somebody else just can't see it? We collect ideas that work and toss out the useless ones.

That's the difference between religion and science.
Science tosses out false conclusions as best as limited human beings can. Religion enshrines them and insist that God said them. That's why science is usually correct and religion usually wrong.
Tom