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Which is a Better Foundation for Morality, Nature or Belief in God?

Enoughie

Active Member
Just like for a house to be good (to serve its purpose well) it must have a solid foundation and a strong framework, for a man to be good (ie. moral) he must also have a solid foundation and a strong framework. Our framework is the values we live by. Our foundation is what these values are based on.

Too many people [wrongly] believe that without God there can be no objective moral standards. Nothing could be further from the truth. As the Natural Philosophy demonstrates, the values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom can very simply and elegantly be derived from Nature itself. Therefore, belief in God is entirely unnecessary if we want to be good.

But what about those who don't really want to be good? Wouldn't belief in God benefit those people, so at least they don't harm others or themselves? The truth is that belief in God is not necessary for such people either. Understanding nature and the Natural Values would be much more beneficial for them, because they would realize that being good, and acting in accord with the natural values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom is actually in their best interest.

So if we go back to the house analogy, the natural values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom provide a strong framework for a moral life, while Nature provides the solid foundation.

But how about belief in God? Wouldn't belief in God provide a foundation that is on par with - if not better than - nature? We can believe that God is watching us at every moment, so even if we have the desire to steal, or lie we know that we'll get punished for it in the end. Isn't that a much better foundation for a moral life? Doesn't the Bible or Quran provide a strong framework for a moral life?

Well, there are some very serious problems with such view. First, we have no evidence that either the Bible or Quran were indeed authored, or even inspired by God. These are mere assumptions believers must take on faith, without anything to support such claims. Second, scientific errors and historic inaccuracies in the Bible and Quran make it difficult to accept these books as the infallible word of God. Believers must live with these contradictions, which means that the framework they chose to live by is really not that strong after all. Third, even if we were to ignore the evident scientific and historic errors, but still fully accept these books for our moral guidance, we would have to embrace some values and precepts that are morally reprehensible. For example, the idea that men shall rule over women (Genesis 3:16), or that disobedient children should be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

But here is the most important reason why belief in God cannot provide a solid foundation for morality, and that is: doubt. If we base our morality on belief in God, the moment we start doubting the existence of God is the moment our entire value system begins to crumble. If we base our morality on belief in God, the moment we stop believing in God we can no longer hold on to our religious values. The problem is that we cannot not doubt. We are constantly presented with new evidence that challenge our beliefs. If we choose to ignore all evidence we become ignorant and blind to the world around us. Blind faith cannot be a good foundation for morality. And since there is no evidence to support or deny the existence of God, doubt is all we can really do. Basing our morality on the foundation of belief in God is like building a foundation on quicksand. The same cannot be said about Nature. Nature is a solid foundation for morality. This is because nature does not require our belief in it. It simply exists. It is real. And "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" (Philip K. Dick)

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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Freedom means that we can do anything as long as we are not harming others, ourselves, or the natural world around us. We should strive to expand our possibilities, but try to avoid obstructing or restricting others and future generations.

Equality means a relation between individuals that is not based on the use of force in any form. Not dominating others, and not being dominated by others.

Honesty means communicating an accurate representation of our feelings, thoughts, values, imagination, ideas, or knowledge about ourselves and the world around us. Being dishonest means conveying a false, distorted, or deluded representation.

Generosity means a contribution (or investment) in the present or future. This could be a contribution at the material, social, personal, emotional, or conceptual level. Generosity is not only toward others but also toward ourselves – if we are enriching or contributing to our own life.
Those things are natural for humans, but they are not nature. Nature is binding, unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless.

(And those are just the qualities I like about her.)
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Those things are natural for humans, but they are not nature. Nature is binding, unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless.

(And those are just the qualities I like about her.)

Nope. That's just your view of nature now - or rather, how nature appears to you on the surface. But if you were to examine it carefully, and really try to understand how nature works, you'd see that nature operates by certain simple rules. And as long as living beings act in accord with these rules, nature wouldn't be "unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless" toward them.

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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that our morality is a mix of nature and nurture.

Some people have more intelligence and empathy than others. I think these are key to developing a sense of morality. Our life experiences give us realisations and wisdom. This also helps develop our sense or morality.

Religion helps to shape our sense of morality in a particular way but religion is not where morality comes from. Morality is a part of being human.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Enoughie said:
As the Natural Philosophy demonstrates, the values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom can very simply and elegantly be derived from Nature itself.
Didn't see any derivation at all, just a lot of "X means Y" and what one should do with X. Then there's the matter of silly string statements. Saying things such as "Evolution is consistent with the values of freedom, equality, honesty, and generosity." is like saying strawberry jam is consistent with the values of love, pride, and trust. All in all, a pretty sophomoric "philosophy."
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Didn't see any derivation at all, just a lot of "X means Y" and what one should do with X. Then there's the matter of silly string statements. Saying things such as "Evolution is consistent with the values of freedom, equality, honesty, and generosity." is like saying strawberry jam is consistent with the values of love, pride, and trust. All in all, a pretty sophomoric "philosophy."

Spending 7 seconds browsing a whole philosophy of life can hardly be considered a thorough analysis. Which means that your commentary cannot be taken seriously. It is baseless. You'd have to do better than that.

The derivation itself can be found here: If Not God, Where Do Our Values Come From? : Freedom and Nature | Natural Philosophy of Life

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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Spending 7 seconds browsing a whole philosophy of life can hardly be considered a thorough analysis.
Absolutely correct. That's why I spent a whole 60± seconds.

Which means that your commentary cannot be taken seriously.
Suite yourself.

It is baseless.
Not at all. I based it on what you gave as evidence for its worth.

You'd have to do better than that.
And you'll have to do better than this. You're the one who selected the information by which you wanted us to judge your Natural Philosophy, and a list of "X means Y" and what one should do with X is hardly the stuff of a real philosophy. It's just a list. A list of opinion and at least one very silly statement.
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Absolutely correct. That's why I spent a whole 60± seconds.
Which makes any discussion with you about the philosophy pointless.

Not at all. I based it on what you gave as evidence for its worth.
What I gave is a link to a reference page with various concepts in the philosophy. Each concept has a link to an article about that concept.

And you'll have to do better than this. You're the one who selected the information by which you wanted us to judge your Natural Philosophy, and a list of "X means Y" and what one should do with X is hardly the stuff of a real philosophy. It's just a list. A list of opinion and at least one very silly statement.
If you're too intellectually lazy to make the smallest effort of clicking on any of those articles then I can't help you. It's foolish to judge an entire philosophy by a reference page.

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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I think that our morality is a mix of nature and nurture.

Some people have more intelligence and empathy than others. I think these are key to developing a sense of morality. Our life experiences give us realisations and wisdom. This also helps develop our sense or morality.

Religion helps to shape our sense of morality in a particular way but religion is not where morality comes from. Morality is a part of being human.

That, pretty much. ^_^
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Which makes any discussion with you about the philosophy pointless.

What I gave is a link to a reference page with various concepts in the philosophy. Each concept has a link to an article about that concept.

If you're too intellectually lazy to make the smallest effort of clicking on any of those articles then I can't help you. It's foolish to judge an entire philosophy by a reference page.

Guess I'm just not up to caring enough. :shrug: Sorry.

But go and hit a homer for nature anyway.
icon14.gif
 

Enoughie

Active Member
Guess I'm just not up to caring enough. :shrug: Sorry.
"Suite" yourself.

[youtube]WeYsTmIzjkw[/youtube]


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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
if we took our morality from nature, we'd have very little morality at all

animals live to breed and keep their territory....in the jungle its every animal for himself, only the strong survive. I cant see much morality in that lifestyle.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Nope. That's just your view of nature now - or rather, how nature appears to you on the surface. But if you were to examine it carefully, and really try to understand how nature works, you'd see that nature operates by certain simple rules. And as long as living beings act in accord with these rules, nature wouldn't be "unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless" toward them.

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Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom
Perhaps it's because nature is binding, unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless that man has learned the value of honesty, generousity, kindness and freedom. ;)
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
if we took our morality from nature, we'd have very little morality at all

I disagree.

Nature possesses no bias, because we are able to relfect upon our Nature, we can create "morality" and the subsequent and unreflective biases that follow.

animals live to breed and keep their territory....in the jungle its every animal for himself, only the strong survive. I cant see much morality in that lifestyle.

Do you see morality in "our lifestyle"?
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Belief in God is far better: nature provides only vague guidance, if any at all!

Peace, :)

Bruce

Vague guidance...only to those who possess a narrow and self deceitful vision.

But I guess, some need to adhere to flock wise manipulation in order for themselves for feel comforted.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Those things are natural for humans, but they are not nature. Nature is binding, unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless.

(And those are just the qualities I like about her.)

Nope. That's just your view of nature now - or rather, how nature appears to you on the surface. But if you were to examine it carefully, and really try to understand how nature works, you'd see that nature operates by certain simple rules. And as long as living beings act in accord with these rules, nature wouldn't be "unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless" toward them.

____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

i would say nature is generous with it's indifference when comes to honesty, equality, and freedom...
nature is truth, nature approaches all things equally and it is free to do so.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Nope. That's just your view of nature now - or rather, how nature appears to you on the surface. But if you were to examine it carefully, and really try to understand how nature works, you'd see that nature operates by certain simple rules. And as long as living beings act in accord with these rules, nature wouldn't be "unfair, indiscriminate, and merciless" toward them.
You must have some alternative definition of "nature'.

Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom
What makes it "natural"?
Seems to me merely making the claim does not make it so.
 
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