Which Old Testament Prophecy Fulfills Luke 24:46-47

[1213]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."
...
Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

Only scripture from Bible that comes to close to it is this:

After two days will he revive us. On the third day he will raise us up, And we will live before him.
Hosea 6:2

But that could maybe also refer to this:

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Matt. 27:52

I believe the scripture Jesus is speaking is some scripture that is not in the Bible.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

There is scripture outlining that Messiah would suffer and be killed......but as for the three days and nights, Jesus himself alluded to the situation of Jonah in the belly of the fish. (Matthew 12:39-40; Jonah 1:17)

Isaiah 53:2-5 outlines what was foretold as the Jewish nation’s view of him....

“No stately form does he have, nor any splendor;
And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.
3 He was despised and was avoided by men,
A man who was meant for pains and was familiar with sickness.
It was as if his face were hidden from us.
He was despised, and we held him as of no account.
4 Truly he himself carried our sicknesses,
And he bore our pains.
But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgression;
He was crushed for our errors.
He bore the punishment for our peace,
And because of his wounds we were healed.”

What an amazing prophesy! But it doesn’t stop there....

Psalm 34:20 even mentions that ‘not a bone of his would be broken’ which was unusual for those executed in the Roman fashion.....after maximum suffering, they would break the legs of their victims so as to hasten death at the end. The two hung alongside Jesus had their legs broken, but since Jesus has already died, no breaking of his bones was necessary. (John 19:32-34)

Zechariah 11:12-13 also speaks of Judas’ wages for his betrayal (thirty pieces of silver) being thrown back into the temple.

Isa 53:8-9...
“For he was cut off from the land of the living;
Because of the transgression of my people he received the stroke.
9 And he was given a burial place with the wicked,
And with the rich in his death,
Although he had done no wrong,
And there was no deception in his mouth.”

So even the tomb of a rich man (Joseph of Arimathea) being used after his death as a ‘wicked’ person, was prophesied.
And that he was put to death as an innocent man who spoke the truth.

It’s not hard to understand why the Jews misjudged him, but as the prophesies indicated, he was despised and treated with contempt by them. Not because he did or said anything wrong, but because he exposed the religious leaders as the hypocrites they were. (Matthew 23) They led a hate campaign against him.

Lost in the wrong mindset, influenced by corrupt leaders, I believe that the scriptures indicate that the Jews lost their inheritance as “sons of Abraham”. (Matthew 3:7-10)

I believe it's just the opposite and others believe this as well, I"m sure. Isaiah 53 is about israel as the suffering servant. The gospel writers saw this passage and decided to mold their avatar god Jesus around this description so that they could say, "Aha! Aha! You see? Jesus WAS prophesied in the Old Testament."

Despite strong objections from conservative Christian apologists, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors.

Who is God's Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 | Outreach Judaism

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Only scripture from Bible that comes to close to it is this:

After two days will he revive us. On the third day he will raise us up, And we will live before him.
Hosea 6:2

But that could maybe also refer to this:

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Matt. 27:52

I believe the scripture Jesus is speaking is some scripture that is not in the Bible.

Very interesting. I wonder where the part Jesus says, "And the gospel shall be preached to the entire world" would be coming from since there was no gospel at the time this scripture was written.

 

[Colt]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

Luke wrote from the vantage point of trying to justify belief in Jesus by Jews by implying that Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT scriptures. He relied on eye witnesses which obviously didn't have perfect recollection of the many things Jesus said.


The Urantia Book revelation has it this way:

In answer to Andrew, Jesus said: “My brethren, it is because you have confessed that I am the Son of God that I am constrained to begin to unfold to you the truth about the end of the bestowal of the Son of Man on earth. You insist on clinging to the belief that I am the Messiah, and you will not abandon the idea that the Messiah must sit upon a throne in Jerusalem; wherefore do I persist in telling you that the Son of Man must presently go to Jerusalem, suffer many things, be rejected by the scribes, the elders, and the chief priests, and after all this be killed and raised from the dead.

To answer specifically, I don't know of any specific OT that fits Lukes account.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Luke wrote from the vantage point of trying to justify belief in Jesus by Jews by implying that Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT scriptures. He relied on eye witnesses which obviously didn't have perfect recollection of the many things Jesus said.


The Urantia Book revelation has it this way:

In answer to Andrew, Jesus said: “My brethren, it is because you have confessed that I am the Son of God that I am constrained to begin to unfold to you the truth about the end of the bestowal of the Son of Man on earth. You insist on clinging to the belief that I am the Messiah, and you will not abandon the idea that the Messiah must sit upon a throne in Jerusalem; wherefore do I persist in telling you that the Son of Man must presently go to Jerusalem, suffer many things, be rejected by the scribes, the elders, and the chief priests, and after all this be killed and raised from the dead.

To answer specifically, I don't know of any specific OT that fits Lukes account.

Thanks much, cOLTER for your frank and honest response. Several have mentioned jesus' quoting Jonah. I can't see it other than 3 days and 3 nights--nothing about dying and rising. I"m surprised no one mentioned Hosea 6:2 but other than those I can't find anything that mentions someone suffering and dying and rising on the 3rd day.

 

[stvdv]

I don't like incomprehensible, because it can be an excuse to stop trying to understand. Its comprehensible in some context that we have forgotten about.

To me the word "incomprehensible" means that you won't find it by reasoning, you need to go beyond reason, beyond mind to find it. Like Jesus going to the desert, and fasting for 40 days. Same for Moses in Exodus going alone to 'meet' God. That is the key, to understand on deeper levels

 

[Deeje]

It is reason enough for Christians to show some humility about our position and to not be judgmental towards either Jews or Muslims. We can't explain our position from our own scriptures. Its as simple as that.

I offer this to @SeekingAllTruth as well....Christians take their stance from their Leader....the one who fulfilled the Messianic prophesies like no other.

Jesus himself made it clear from what he said about his own nation, that those who led Israel were not a good source of truth. Read Matthew ch23. A bit like asking OJ Simpson if he killed his wife....?

This nation, as “sons of Abraham” under a succession of corrupt leaders all through its history, failed to follow the instructions of the God they vowed to 'obey' at Mt Sinai. Obedience meant life and blessing.....disobedience meant death and God’s curse. (Deuteronomy 11:26-28; Exodus 19:5-6)

We can explain our position from our own scriptures because we accept Jesus as the Christ. We decide who and what to believe. Do you trust the enemies of Jesus, or Jesus himself?...we must decide that for ourselves. (John 14:21)

After the destruction of the Temple in 70CE, all the genealogical records were destroyed, making any future claim to be the Messiah, virtually impossible.
Daniel’s prophesy concerning the year of the Messiah’s appearance was spot on (Daniel 9:24-27) and the Jews were expecting his appearance at that time. (29 CE) The majority of Bible scholars agree that the “weeks” of the prophecy are weeks of years. John the Baptist had been sent to "prepare the way" for the Messiah and those baptized by John had demonstrated that they were ready for him. But John did not have a good thing to say about the religious leaders. (Matthew 3:7-10)

Jesus was put to death after three and a half years, fulfilling Daniel’s prophesy in that aspect too. So unless you disbelieve the scriptures, there is no reason to question what they say about the validity of Jesus as Messiah.

The Jews completely rejected Jesus as the Christ and they present their excuses as much today as they always have. That is their choice, but their Messiah has never made an appearance, and God has not in any way blessed that nation which still has turmoil and bloodshed in their dealings with the others who share their claimed territory. Where is their Temple, without which they cannot present their sacrifices to God under the Law that they claim is still in force? Jerusalem's Temple Mount is claimed by all three Abrahamic faiths and fighting over the site has become a farce. Why? Because Jesus said that no geographical location was going to be the seat of God's worship in the future. (John 4:19-22) According to the greater fulfillment of the prophesies....the 'Israelites' are now a spiritual nation (Galatians 6:16) and the Promised Land is the whole world, because the promise made to Abraham was for "all the nations" to benefit from Messiah's mission.

As for Muslims.....the prophesies in their own scripture, confirm that all prophesy would be fulfilled through Abraham’s offspring named as "Isaac and Jacob", not Ishmael.
Like the Jews, claiming Abraham as your “father” does not mean much if there is innocent blood on your hands. That is what would identify the true Christians from the 'weedy' imitations foretold by Jesus....they would be identified by their obedience to his teachings.....teachings that disqualify all those who participate in spilling blood for religious or political reasons...how many does that rule out? (Matthew 7:13-14)

Matthew 5:43-45....
“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

We prove that we are ‘sons of the Father’ by ‘loving our enemies’ (not harming them)....how can you love your enemies by firing missiles at them or bombing and killing them? We are to have no blood on our hands. (Isaiah 1:15) True Christians will not be any part of bloodshed for any reason....not even if it seems justified. The first Christians were the model.

This is the Christian position....
Romans 12:17-21....
“17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.“

Who do you see fulfilling those mandates? Israel? Islam? Christendom? What does that mean in your estimations?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Christians take their stance from their Leader....the one who fulfilled the Messianic prophesies like no other.

Going by Matthew's usage of 'Fulfill' Jesus pantomimes Israel rather than doing things that are predicted. Therefore the word 'Fulfill' is misleading when given without explanation. So why does Matthew use the misleading term 'Fulfill'? That is a good question, but he does use it. I always say that it is not intended to mislead but that its not intended to be read by amateurs and outsiders. If such a book as Matthew were picked up by an outsider such as a Roman priest he'd probably dismiss it as a non dangerous book, because he would not understand its gravity or its language.

'Pantomime' is fitting, because he as to be judged on his own words by the procedure in Deuteronomy 13. Pantomiming is what prophets do when they put yokes on their necks or do other extreme things. If signs could mark Jesus as messiah then this passage of Deuteronomy would have to be bogus, but it is not bogus. It is duty and process. Consider the day that Jesus gets onto a colt, the foal of the donkey. Lots of people had done that before him. It proved nothing, however by placing Jesus upon the donkey's foal the writer (or the rider) was challenging the people to test his message which those following Torah were compelled to do. They were compelled to consider his words.

Jesus himself made it clear from what he said about his own nation, that those who led Israel were not a good source of truth. Read Matthew ch23. A bit like asking OJ Simpson if he killed his wife....?

So why does Matthew use the misleading term 'Fulfill'? That is a good question, but he does use it. I always say that it is not intended to mislead but that its not intended to be read by amateurs and outsiders. If such a book as Matthew were picked up by an outsider such as a Roman priest he'd probably dismiss it as a non dangerous book, because he would not understand its gravity or its language.

Its easy to throw mud and difficult to wipe it off. Not only in Jesus day but in all of the Jewish canon and Christian you will find that leaders are to be distrusted. Pick any book in the canon. Paul says wolves rise up from within, and if the rest of the canon is any clue he means leaders. Its a challenging problem. Leaders are what divide us all, but how do we function without them? Is a bishop a leader? Is a deacon a leader? Is a pastor a leader? Many would say yes, but I doubt it. I doubt that we need leaders. Instead we desire them just as Israel in 1 Samuel desires a king. This is a pattern in the canon, that leadership fails every time. Aaron always makes a golden calf. The list of kings is a laundry list of evil and failure. Everything hoped for in leaders is never achieved.

It matters that the messiah is no leader but comes riding on a colt, the foal of the donkey. The gravitas is that he is no leader, and Paul says (1Cor 15:28) the Son must give up the crown so that God can be all and in all. Each one seeks the crown of righteousness, not a crown of power and instead must give up control and power. Instead all function together like parts of a body, different but still connected. Jesus physical crown is a crown of thorns as is our own if we follow him, assuming that is included with the cross.

After the destruction of the Temple in 70CE, all the genealogical records were destroyed, making any future claim to be the Messiah, virtually impossible.
Daniel’s prophesy concerning the year of the Messiah’s appearance was spot on (Daniel 9:24-27) and the Jews were expecting his appearance at that time. (29 CE) The majority of Bible scholars agree that the “weeks” of the prophecy are weeks of years. John the Baptist had been sent to "prepare the way" for the Messiah and those baptized by John had demonstrated that they were ready for him. But John did not have a good thing to say about the religious leaders. (Matthew 3:7-10)

Jesus was put to death after three and a half years, fulfilling Daniel’s prophesy in that aspect too. So unless you disbelieve the scriptures, there is no reason to question what they say about the validity of Jesus as Messiah.

Challenging. Who does believe the scriptures which say not to trust in signs? That would be the saints. Who lays down his life for the sheep? Who lives off of the sheep?

The Jews completely rejected Jesus as the Christ and they present their excuses as much today as they always have. That is their choice, but their Messiah has never made an appearance, and God has not in any way blessed that nation which still has turmoil and bloodshed in their dealings with the others who share their claimed territory. Where is their Temple, without which they cannot present their sacrifices to God under the Law that they claim is still in force? Jerusalem's Temple Mount is claimed by all three Abrahamic faiths and fighting over the site has become a farce. Why? Because Jesus said that no geographical location was going to be the seat of God's worship in the future. (John 4:19-22) According to the greater fulfillment of the prophesies....the 'Israelites' are now a spiritual nation (Galatians 6:16) and the Promised Land is the whole world, because the promise made to Abraham was for "all the nations" to benefit from Messiah's mission.

Here is a small defense of the Jews:

• "Its no good! Worthless! says the buyer, and then off he goes and boasts about his purchase!" -- Proverbs 20:14. This is the case with the Jews when it comes to receiving Christ's message. They may not formally receive its words, but they have followed its policy and spirit. What value has simply mouthing who is the messiah or who isn't. Saying Lord Lord and all that is of little value - sheep and the goats and each is befuddled by the decision.
  
• [Mat 21:29-31 NIV] 29 " 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. 31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." Now who has more tax collectors and prostitutes than the Jews? Little ribbing there since they have a great sense of humor (I'm making that up about them having more prostitutes and tax collectors), but I emphasize lets not judge people and decide who has accepted or hasn't accepted Christ's message. There is the outward and the inward.

Have the Jews indeed rejected Jesus, because if they receive his message then they receive him and if that then the Father who sends him. What is that message but peace on earth, good will towards men(includes women) and glory to God in the highest.

As for Muslims.....the prophesies in their own scripture, confirm that all prophesy would be fulfilled through Abraham’s offspring named as "Isaac and Jacob", not Ishmael.
Like the Jews, claiming Abraham as your “father” does not mean much if there is innocent blood on your hands. That is what would identify the true Christians from the 'weedy' imitations foretold by Jesus....they would be identified by their obedience to his teachings.....teachings that disqualify all those who participate in spilling blood for religious or political reasons...how many does that rule out? (Matthew 7:13-14)

Defense of the Muslims:

• A Muslim can be a peacemaker. Though he is speaking to the choir of Jews Jesus does say "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the Earth" and "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled." (Matthew 5) I've never seen anyone hungrier for righteousness than a Muslim.
  
• [Jas 3:18 NIV] 18 "Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness."
• [Jas 3:17 NIV] 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
• [Mat 24:40-41 NIV] 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 5:43-45....
“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

We prove that we are ‘sons of the Father’ by ‘loving our enemies’ (not harming them)....how can you love your enemies by firing missiles at them or bombing and killing them? We are to have no blood on our hands. (Isaiah 1:15) True Christians will not be any part of bloodshed for any reason....not even if it seems justified. The first Christians were the model.

This is the Christian position....
Romans 12:17-21....
“17 Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.“

Who do you see fulfilling those mandates? Israel? Islam? Christendom? What does that mean in your estimations?

We continue to follow leaders, and as long as we are doing that the battle is not won. People will continue to be mislead and to fight one another. Israel (the country) has its prime minister, and each country and each group has its leaders. Even within churches people are hungry for leaders, so its as if every week of every year everyone throws aside the LORD for a king. Good things can happen, but how can we do evil and expect good to come of it?

 

[Neuropteron]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

Hi,

Ps 16:10
For you will not leave my soul in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.
Daniel 9:24-27
:26 ...after sixty two weeks Messisah will be cut off, with nothing ....and he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to dease.

The Seventy weeks mentioned in Daniel is a prophetic time period during which Jesusalem would be rebuild and Messiah would appear and then be cut off.

It is necessary to understand the time of the beginning of the 70 weeks, as well as their length. The majority of Bible scholars agree that the "weeks" in question are weeks of years.
It is not easy to calculate how to pinpoint accurately the dates, nonetheless using only the Bible as reference it is possible to determine the arrival of the Christ, time of death and resurrection.

Be it as it may this is the prophecy luke 24:26 is referring to.

Additionally Jonah's three days in the belly of the "fish" prefigured Jesus's death and resurrection.

Cheers.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Hi,

Ps 16:10
For you will not leave my soul in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.
Daniel 9:24-27
:26 ...after sixty two weeks Messisah will be cut off, with nothing ....and he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to dease.

The Seventy weeks mentioned in Daniel is a prophetic time period during which Jesusalem would be rebuild and Messiah would appear and then be cut off.

It is necessary to understand the time of the beginning of the 70 weeks, as well as their length. The majority of Bible scholars agree that the "weeks" in question are weeks of years.
It is not easy to calculate how to pinpoint accurately the dates, nonetheless using only the Bible as reference it is possible to determine the arrival of the Christ, time of death and resurrection.

Be it as it may this is the prophecy luke 24:26 is referring to.

Additionally Jonah's three days in the belly of the "fish" prefigured Jesus's death and resurrection.

Cheers.

Psalm 16:10 I think David was referring to himself--that Yahweh would rescue David from Sheol.

Daniel 9 clearly speaks of two anointed people – one after 49 years (7 weeks), who will begin the rebuilding of the Second Temple. And a second after 62 weeks (434 years), when an anointed person will be cut off. The first one predates the Second Temple and clearly does not refer to Jesus.

Daniel also states that that this mashiach will be cut off “and there will not be to him” (“v’ain lo”). It is a cryptic term, but seems to say that he will have nothing left or there will be nothing left of him. Christians interpret this expression as meaning “he will die but not for his own sake” – namely, the Messiah will die for our sins. But that is simply not what the Hebrew means.

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9: Ask the Rabbi Response

Thank you, though.

 

[Bree]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

There are very detailed prophecies that explain the death of the Messiah by the prophets Daniel and Isaiah

Daniel 9:25 You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem+ until Mes·siʹah*+ the Leader,+ there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks.+ She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress.
26 “And after the 62 weeks, Mes·siʹah will be cut off,*+ with nothing for himself.+
“And the people of a leader who is coming will destroy the city and the holy place.+ And its end will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.+


Isaiah 53 is a messianic prophecy and in part it says:

Vs3:
3 He was despised and was avoided by men,+A man who was meant for* pains and was familiar with sickness.It was as if his face were hidden from us.*
He was despised, and we held him as of no account
Vs5
But he was pierced+ for our transgression;+He was crushed for our errors.+
He bore the punishment for our peace,+ And because of his wounds we were healed
Vs7
He was oppressed+ and he let himself be afflicted,+But he would not open his mouth.
He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter
Vs9
And he was given a burial place* with the wicked,+And with the rich* in his death

 

[Fallen Prophet]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

Considering that the Old Testament mentions several books of scripture that do not themselves appear in our current copies of the Old Testament - it is entirely possible that this reference was written in a book that has been lost.

 

[Bree]

What verses from the OT might be assembled to get a an accurate picture of what Jesus is referring to? I've tried on many occasions to read websites that list the 400 scriptures that Jesus fulfilled but could not assemble a collection of specific verses that Jesus is referring to. perhaps Christians are right: the "blind" cannot see what the HS hides from them.

If you want to see it, you will.

Being 'blinded' is dependent on how your own acceptance of Gods word

I know that you know this reference by Jesus cannot be the prediction of Luke 24:46, not chronologically. It explains no prediction which Luke 24:46 could possibly be talking about. Our gospel literally states that Jesus explains from the scriptures how the scriptures (pronounced "Tanakhhhkkhkhhk") say the messiah must die and be resurrected after 3 days, yet there is no single passage in the scriptures stating such case or making such prediction explicitly. Who explains it? It is a gaping hole in the claim that Jesus has explained from the scriptures. I have asked all kinds of people. Nobody can explain.

It is reason enough for Christians to show some humility about our position and to not be judgmental towards either Jews or Muslims. We can't explain our position from our own scriptures. Its as simple as that.

actually, its not 'our' position to say that the account of Jonah being in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights is a messianic prophecy.

It is Jesus himself who explains it that way.

So if we are chrisitan, then we accept his teaching and his explanation. The account of Jonah was a prophetic drama according to Jesus and it was a foreglimps of how the Messiah would be in the belly of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights and then miraculously resurrected by God just as God brought Jonah out of the belly of the fish.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

If you want to see it, you will.

Being 'blinded' is dependent on how your own acceptance of Gods word


actually, its not 'our' position to say that the account of Jonah being in the belly of the fish for 3 days and 3 nights is a messianic prophecy.

It is Jesus himself who explains it that way.

So if we are chrisitan, then we accept his teaching and his explanation. The account of Jonah was a prophetic drama according to Jesus and it was a foreglimps of how the Messiah would be in the belly of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights and then miraculously resurrected by God just as God brought Jonah out of the belly of the fish.

But that still doesn't explain "As it is written....repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Where is that written in the OT?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Considering that the Old Testament mentions several books of scripture that do not themselves appear in our current copies of the Old Testament - it is entirely possible that this reference was written in a book that has been lost.

It's possible.

 

[Bree]

But that still doesn't explain "As it is written....repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in

But that still doesn't explain "As it is written....repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Where is that written in the OT?

"

Where is that written in the OT?

you wont find it 'word for word' because what we read in the christian scriptures are 'explanations' of the OT prophecies.

Jesus says it is written that repentance for forgiveness of sins will occur ... he is explaining the prophecy of Isaiah The Messiah 'will bring a righteous standing to many people'

Isaiah 55:11 Because of his anguish,* he will see and be satisfied.
By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant,+
Will bring a righteous standing to many people,+
And their errors he will bear

Jesus explanation is that this 'righteous standing' comes from the forgivness of sins that God grants us by means of the sacrifice he made. The apostles of Jesus preached this in the temple in Jerusalem. So it did start in Jerusalem.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

you wont find it 'word for word' because what we read in the christian scriptures are 'explanations' of the OT prophecies.

Jesus says it is written that repentance for forgiveness of sins will occur ... he is explaining the prophecy of Isaiah The Messiah 'will bring a righteous standing to many people'

Isaiah 55:11 Because of his anguish,* he will see and be satisfied.
By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant,+
Will bring a righteous standing to many people,+
And their errors he will bear

Jesus explanation is that this 'righteous standing' comes from the forgivness of sins that God grants us by means of the sacrifice he made. The apostles of Jesus preached this in the temple in Jerusalem. So it did start in Jerusalem.

Oh, I see. Thank you.

 

[JerryMyers]

"He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

I scoured the Old Testament looking for a passage(s) saying that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem--and I cannot find it.

Can anyone help me locate this specific prophecy?

- ‘The Messiah will suffer’
In saying this, Jesus was making reference to the fact that all, if not most, of the past prophets went through a period of sufferings, and some were even killed, just for carrying the Message of God and their sufferings are written in the OT. For example, Jeremiah, because he was conveying the Message from God, was imprisoned and thrown into a cistern (Jeremiah 37 and 38). Daniel was put into the den of lions (Daniel 6). Micaiah refused to tell anything but only the Message of God, even though he knew it would anger Ahab and because of that, he was put in prison and fed only with bread and water (1Kings 22:27). Joseph was sold into Egypt, then falsely accused and imprisoned there (Genesis 39:20).

Because past prophets have gone through sufferings for carrying the Message of God, it’s only natural for Jesus to expect he too will go through sufferings as he too was carrying the Message of God to the people.

- ‘and rise from the dead on the third day’
This is a clear reference to Hosea 6:2 – “After two days, He will revive us, on the third day He will raise us up..”.

Hosea 6 is about the call to repent and to return to God, which explained why Jesus referred to it, as his next sentence is,

- ‘and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name’
Repentance for the forgiveness of sin is a reference to Ezekiel 18:21-22 - “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them”.

Repentance is about turning away from all the sins one has committed and forgiveness of sins is when none of the offenses committed will be remembered by God.

 

[Deeje]

Going by Matthew's usage of 'Fulfill' Jesus pantomimes Israel rather than doing things that are predicted. Therefore the word 'Fulfill' is misleading when given without explanation. So why does Matthew use the misleading term 'Fulfill'? That is a good question, but he does use it. I always say that it is not intended to mislead but that its not intended to be read by amateurs and outsiders.

Matthew uses the word "fulfilled" because of what it meant.....to fulfill something is to carry it out to completion.
See G4137 - plēroō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NASB20)

'Pantomime' is fitting, because he as to be judged on his own words by the procedure in Deuteronomy 13. Pantomiming is what prophets do when they put yokes on their necks or do other extreme things. If signs could mark Jesus as messiah then this passage of Deuteronomy would have to be bogus, but it is not bogus. It is duty and process. Consider the day that Jesus gets onto a colt, the foal of the donkey. Lots of people had done that before him. It proved nothing, however by placing Jesus upon the donkey's foal the writer (or the rider) was challenging the people to test his message which those following Torah were compelled to do. They were compelled to consider his words.

In isolation, nothing Jesus did was of note, except perhaps his miracles which the Pharisees could not deny, so they attributed them to Beelzebub. They even had plans to kill Lazarus too, as the word spread about his resurrection. This was their response to everything.....silence the messengers if they make us look bad.

It is what Jesus 'fulfilled' collectively that is impressive.....which included things he could not have organized himself...his lineage, his tribe, the place of his birth and the treatment he received at the hands of his persecutors who already had a disgraceful record of disobedience and rejection of God's prophets sent to correct them. (Matthew 23:37)

Paul says wolves rise up from within, and if the rest of the canon is any clue he means leaders. Its a challenging problem. Leaders are what divide us all, but how do we function without them? Is a bishop a leader? Is a deacon a leader? Is a pastor a leader? Many would say yes, but I doubt it. I doubt that we need leaders. Instead we desire them just as Israel in 1 Samuel desires a king. This is a pattern in the canon, that leadership fails every time. Aaron always makes a golden calf. The list of kings is a laundry list of evil and failure. Everything hoped for in leaders is never achieved.

Exactly......so we had to have a way to test them out.....Jesus said we had to examine their "fruitage" so as to be convinced of their words, their actions had to back them up. But what do we find? Talk is cheap....anyone can claim to be anything they want and some gullible fool will hang off their every word. But look at what they do...what they are and see if there is hypocrisy. Its not hard then to spot the fraudsters.

Counterfeits can be spotted easily...not by knowing what every counterfeit looks like...but by knowing what the original looks like and comparing. When we compare what Jesus taught to what the religious leaders of all the fragmented churches of Christendom teach, we can soon see who the frauds are.....even in just that one area that I covered in post #27. Who is obedient to the Christ and his apostles? Those who shed blood for their governments or their religion, or those who would rather go to prison for refusing to break Christ's command?

It matters that the messiah is no leader but comes riding on a colt, the foal of the donkey. The gravitas is that he is no leader, and Paul says (1Cor 15:28) the Son must give up the crown so that God can be all and in all. Each one seeks the crown of righteousness, not a crown of power and instead must give up control and power. Instead all function together like parts of a body, different but still connected. Jesus physical crown is a crown of thorns as is our own if we follow him, assuming that is included with the cross.

Matthew 23:9-11.....Jesus said....
"Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister."

1 Corinthians 1:25-28 fills out the details.....
"For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

There is the whole story about the Kingdom right there in those verses....do people know what they are reading there?
Christ has been appointed as King of God's Kingdom by his Father with all the authority that goes with that. Revelation 12:7-10 is the bestowing of that authority with winning a war in heaven and the eviction of satan and his hordes from ever going back there again....but now they will create havoc here on the earth until it comes time for them to enter the abyss for 1,000 years. (Revelation 20:1-3)

Whist satan and his minions are out of action, Jesus set about undoing all the works of the devil here on Earth by bringing Kingdom rule to mankind and ridding them of the sin they inherited from Adam. The above verses are about his rulership and what it will accomplish in order to give mankind back the life that was taken from them by a rebellious trio back in Eden. (Revelation 21:2-4) The chief culprit will be languishing in a prison for 1,000 years, ensuring plenty of time for the resurrection to take place and education of all those whom Jesus has called from their tombs. (John 5:28-29)

Once Jesus has accomplished all that God commanded him to do, by means of the Kingdom, all will return to the way things were in Eden, before the rebellion. Jesus then hands the rulership back to his Father, so God will then be Earth's only King with all intelligent creation subject to him....including his firstborn Son.

Challenging. Who does believe the scriptures which say not to trust in signs? That would be the saints. Who lays down his life for the sheep? Who lives off of the sheep?

Jesus' true disciples would be distinguishable from the 'weedy' imitation Christians by their beliefs and conduct.
They are there in the world growing alongside the weeds and as the time for the harvest approaches, we can see a clear distinction. Jesus said that "the good news of the kingdom" would be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come". (Matthew 24:14)
So who are doing this difficult work in all the nations, in the face of stiff opposition, searching for the worthy ones? (Matthew 10:11-14; John 15:18-21)

Have the Jews indeed rejected Jesus, because if they receive his message then they receive him and if that then the Father who sends him. What is that message but peace on earth, good will towards men(includes women) and glory to God in the highest.

That is giving glory to God in the name of Jesus Christ....who, himself gave his God all the glory. (Philippians 2:9-11) If the Jews fail to accept Jesus as Messiah, then they can have no relationship with the Father. Are they wondering why there is no peace in their homeland? Who have they allied themselves with?

Defense of the Muslims:

• A Muslim can be a peacemaker. Though he is speaking to the choir of Jews Jesus does say "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the Earth" and "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled." (Matthew 5) I've never seen anyone hungrier for righteousness than a Muslim.
  
• [Jas 3:18 NIV] 18 "Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness."
• [Jas 3:17 NIV] 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
• [Mat 24:40-41 NIV] 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Again it requires that faith be exercised in Jesus Christ, not as a mere prophet of God, or as a person who was just a good man.....but as "the only begotten son of God" who died so that the ransom was paid to save mankind. It is faith in his blood that saves us...not mere belief that he existed, or that all that God requires is those who demonstrate that they are "good" people.......Show me where God ever said that he was going to save "good people"? Without "love of God"..."love of neighbor" makes one only a good humanitarian....and these can be atheists. Loving God means it has to be sincere and from the heart....and it has to be the right God....there is only one genuine one (John 17:3)....but there are lots of phonies.

We continue to follow leaders, and as long as we are doing that the battle is not won. People will continue to be mislead and to fight one another. Israel (the country) has its prime minister, and each country and each group has its leaders. Even within churches people are hungry for leaders, so its as if every week of every year everyone throws aside the LORD for a king. Good things can happen, but how can we do evil and expect good to come of it?

God tried to warn his people about the drawbacks of human rulership, but his people wanted to be like the nations and have a human king.....they never listened and came to regret their decision. Power corrupts as we have seen all through human history. But humans keep repeating the same mistakes because they can't be told. All God has ever asked of us is our obedience.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Matthew uses the word "fulfilled" because of what it meant.....to fulfill something is to carry it out to completion.
See G4137 - plēroō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NASB20)

Spoiler: Voice of Rachel weeping - no prediction about Herod

[Mat 2:17-18 NIV] 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
[Jer 31:16-18 NIV] 16 This is what the LORD says: "Restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears, for your work will be rewarded," declares the LORD. "They will return from the land of the enemy. 17 So there is hope for your descendants," declares the LORD. "Your children will return to their own land. 18 "I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: 'You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the LORD my God.

[Mat 2:16 NIV] 16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

As is plain to see, Jeremiah never predicts a specific event, and in fact Jeremiah is talking about a different specific event. He leaves nothing to be completed.

Jeremiah 31

Spoiler: He will be called a Nazarene -- no completion predicted

[Mat 2:23 NIV] 23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

Nobody can find any such reference. Its an allusion to a figure that is not specifically identified, perhaps David. David offers the showbread and is not punished, but there is no prophet that says anyone else must do this, nothing to complete or fulfill.

Spoiler: Ever hearing -- no prediction, nothing to complete

Possibly? Isa 42:18-20; Isa 44:18; Jer 5:21; Eze 12:2

All prophet references which could remotely be connected to this are in Jeremiah and Isaiah, and they specifically apply to specific events in the past. Jeremiah is dealing with Israel in the time of Babylon. So is Isaiah. Neither prophet predicts that they will ignore Jesus. Instead each prophet predicts that they will be brought back after some suffering...not specific and leaving nothing specific to be completed.

[Mat 13:13-15 NIV] 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Spoiler: I will open my mouth in parables -- no prediction or completion required

[Mat 13:34-35 NIV] 34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

Though Matthew calls this a fulfillment there is, again, no prediction or anything requiring parables in scripture. Again, 'Fulfill' does not mean fulfill to Matthew.

Spoiler: Peter and the sword -- no prediction and nothing to complete

[Mat 26:52-54 NIV] 52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
[Luk 22:36-37 NIV] 36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

All of this from Isaiah 53, which is the Suffering Servant chapter which Jews say describes Israel and some Christians say describes Jesus. At the time of Jesus this would not be considered any kind of prediction at all.

Nobody can show where the scriptures say that a messiah must be numbered with the transgressors, and yet again Matthew uses the term 'Fulfill' in a way that does not mean fulfill. So does Luke, so this brings Luke into the same usage. This is fully explainable in terms of imitation but not fulfillment. It is explainable if Jesus symbolizes Israel but is otherwise inexplicable, and I think Christians are not required to think any particular way about it. We have freedom of thought.

For those unfamiliar with Matthew or who are learning about Christianity, Isaiah is written centuries before Jesus time. It applies to the Jews' sufferings, hopes and travels first, and then Jesus imitates those sufferings, hopes and travels in his own life. Calling these 'Predictions' is disingenuous, however you will encounter preachers and missionaries doing so.

Spoiler: Thirty Pieces of Silver -- no prediction nothing to complete

[Mat 27:5-10 NIV] 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

Firstly, the quote is not from Jeremiah as Matthew writes but from Zechariah. Same same to us, so we can look it up in Zechariah. Zechariah is written around the time of Jeremiah and deals with some of the same events, so its not much of a difference to us who writes the passage. Maybe Matthew knows something we don't, so its Ok.

So what happens in Zechariah 11 is that Zechariah is behaving like a prophet, making a fuss, causing trouble. He takes a job as a shepherd and mistreats the sheep, getting himself fired. His severance pay is 30 shekels of silver. This is not a prediction of anything and leaves nothing to be completed.

That makes a tautology of scriptures in Matthew in which absolutely no predictions are made, nobody is expecting anything to be completed, fulfilled or otherwise done; yet each Matthew says is fulfilled by Jesus. This is fully explainable in terms of imitation but not fulfillment. It is explainable if Jesus life imitates the times and travels of Israel and the Jews but is otherwise not explainable.

Matthew never says Jesus fulfills something that we can find a prediction of. This is not an accident. Nobody is so ignorant that they would write it in this way accidentally.