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Which Theory of Evolution do you Believe?

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Albert Einstein once said: “If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live. No more bees, no more pollination … no more men!”
It's not confirmed that Einstein said this. I don't think there's any primary source to confirm it. The quote started to show up around 1994, many years after Einstein's death.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp

He wasn’t an entomologist, but entomologists around today agree that the sudden and mysterious disappearance
My understanding is that it's not a mystery anymore. It's a virus or bacteria, if I remember right. I saw some article a while ago about it.

That's true. It will cause a serious problem... for us and for many species.

However, what's interesting with ecology, is that it sets for an equilibrium when the environment is stable, as it has been for about 15,000 years, but when climate changes, new species will arise to the top, while others will whimper and go quietly to extinction.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Actually, all I have to do is point to similar features in the animal kingdom or fossil record, find the distinct similarities between those parts of the bodies and their own, and how the functions differ. The lack of (or limited) function of various vestigial features can be explained through the evolutionary model, and there currently exists no other viable scientific theory or hypothesis which better explains the phenomenon of organisms such as humans possessing organs or features which have little to no purpose.


Please stop with the childish ad hominems and presumptions, please. I'm getting quite sick of your inability to debate this in an honest and respectful manner.


So your claim that I assume "humans having too many teeth to fit in their mouths proves macro-evolution" isn't a lie? Then please provide an example of me saying that. I will not take another attempt to dodge this clear example of you lying. Either prove that I said it, or else apologize for lying and retract the statement.

Actually, all I have to do is point to similar features in the animal kingdom or fossil record, find the distinct similarities between those parts of the bodies and their own, and how the functions differ.

That's good! Please do so for the appendix.

I don't lie at this forum. I made a statement regarding another poster, I assumed you were, when you interrupted a conversation with another person, assuming their argument, "prove macro evolution", but I guess you were just goal post shifting. I'm used to it from materialists. It's okay. You wouldn't say "liar!" of course, if you could prove macro-evolution. No need to do so, just go ahead and do what you said regarding the appendix:

Actually, all I have to do is point to similar features in the animal kingdom or fossil record, find the distinct similarities between those parts of the bodies and their own, and how the functions differ.

Further, your statement:

I'm getting quite sick of your inability to debate this in an honest and respectful manner.

Hardly goes with your "liar, pants on fire!" debate line of patter thus far. Stop it.

Thought for the day--why can't evolutionists and atheists (or whatever) at the forums confine themselves to respectful, "I believe you have your facts wrong" statements. Why must they call people liars?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
In increasing order of plausibility.

Respectful suggestion to God: next time, give the pinnacle of your creation a beak. Teeth are a pain to maintain.



Theological question. Did Adam and Eve have an appendix? Or did God give appendix to people after the Fall in order to protect them from the Fall consequences, namely from bad guys like some bacteria?



You are embarassing yourself, I think. It is pretty obvious that you do not know what evolution is.

Ciao

- viole

Complaining that teeth need brushing, and flossing or even orthodontics, is like complaining that life is hard. But telling the creator He goofed is tantamount to denying the real truth, we fell and sinned.

You are embarassing yourself, I think. It is pretty obvious that you do not know what evolution is.

I know what the Socratic method is, and I try to help people with it. Biblically, though, you should know that I should probably give up on you. You are consistently a mocker, so why should I not put you on ignore?

And what do you think, if Adam and Eve were made like us and had appendixes, did they rupture and go bad before the Fall or afterward? You really don't know the answer, do you?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I know what the Socratic method is, and I try to help people with it. Biblically, though, you should know that I should probably give up on you.

The Socratic methods works best if you actually understand the answers people give to your questions. But as long you want to keep yourself willfully ignorant about the subject, I do not see how you can deploy that effectively. It would be like me trying to find some truths about Chinese medieval poetry by asking questions to a person that speaks only chinese.

You are consistently a mocker, so why should I not put you on ignore?

Well, your nonsense about how evolution is interpreted (from seed to tree proves macroeveolution) is pretty close to mocking. The difference is that the usual caricatures of evolution by natural selection perpetrated by creationists do not offend me in the slightest. So why are you upset when we make fun of your talking serpents and prophets living three days in a fish or Gods taking a three days break for our sins, if you believe they are more plausible? It beats me.

However, I might mock your beliefs, not necessarily you. We mock the beliefs, not the believers. That is very important to keep in mind. More or less like you hating the sin but not the sinner. Not the same things, ja?

And you can put me on ignore if you want. Actually, i would, if I were you.

And what do you think, if Adam and Eve were made like us and had appendixes, did they rupture and go bad before the Fall or afterward? You really don't know the answer, do you?

I asked you what the purpose of the appendix in Adam and Eve was, assuming you really believe in them. If the only purpose of the appendix is to protect against nasty bacteria, why did they have it? Were there pre-fall nasty bacteria or did God already know they might need it at design time? :)

Ciao

- viole
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I don't lie at this forum.
You said that I assumed that humans having too many teeth "proved macro-evolution". If that is not a lie, show me where I wrote that.

I made a statement regarding another poster, I assumed you were, when you interrupted a conversation with another person, assuming their argument, "prove macro evolution", but I guess you were just goal post shifting.
For starters, you can't "interrupt a conversation" on a forum. The whole point of a forum is that anyone can contribute their opinion on any subject and inject their opinion when they wish. If you wish to have a private conversation, do it in PMs - or, better still, restrict your conversations to private functions rather than public forums.

For seconds, please point to where any poster said that having too many teeth "proved macro-evolution" and where I agreed with that.

For desserts, you clearly don't understand what "moving goalposts" actually means.

I'm used to it from materialists. It's okay. You wouldn't say "liar!" of course, if you could prove macro-evolution.
I wouldn't say it if you weren't a liar. But you are a liar, so I said it. Because you lied.

No need to do so, just go ahead and do what you said regarding the appendix:
Well, the human appendix bears similarity to caecum of a variety of animals, but is far smaller and reduced in function:

http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/farm/content/animalstructure.html
"An adult human's digestive tract is approximately 6.5 meters long and consists of the pharynx, oesophagus, stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Digestion in humans is similar to that of other monogastric animals. However, unlike most herbivorous animals, humans have a relatively small caecum with a vermiform appendix. The appendix is a blind-ended tube connected to the caecum near the point where the small intestine joins the large intestine. The appendix appears to be a vestigial structure, reduced in size and function when compared to the same structure in other animals. One explanation for this is that the human appendix was once much larger and served a similar function to the caecum of hind gut fermenters.Over time, the diets of early humans changed to include more meat and less high-fibre plant material. This meant that there was no selective advantage in having a large appendix (and in fact there would be an energy cost in maintaining it), and individuals with a smaller appendix became more common over time . Modern humans would have difficulty extracting enough nutrients if they were restricted to a diet similar to that of ruminant animals. While we are encouraged to eat a diet high in vegetables and fruit, that diet is generally restricted to easy-to-digest material that is relatively low in cellulose: fruit, flowers and new stems and leaves. In other words, our diet is restricted by our inability to extract sufficient nutrients from high-cellulose plant material."

I find your particular obsession with the appendix to be odd, considering that it has already been explained that the appendix isn't a clear-cut example of vestigiality, and I have already presented you with several better ones.

Further, your statement:

Hardly goes with your "liar, pants on fire!" debate line of patter thus far. Stop it.
So accusing someone of lying when they have lied is immature? Where exactly have I implied that anyone's "pants" were "on fire"? I believe my statements have been more comparable to "You have lied. Here is the evidence of you lying. This makes you a liar. I would like you to apologize and retract your lie." That's pretty far removed from playground taunting. Then again, this is just further evidence of your dishonesty and your inability to deal with this subject in an educated, mature and reasonable fashion.

Thought for the day--why can't evolutionists and atheists (or whatever) at the forums confine themselves to respectful, "I believe you have your facts wrong" statements. Why must they call people liars?
Mainly, because they lie. Like you have. If you were mistaken, you could have very easily said "I apologize, I was mistaken, I retract my statement". So far, you haven't. Instead, you have continued to engage in personal attacks against me and resorted to further distortion of my statements. Why must you lie to support your arguments?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
The Socratic methods works best if you actually understand the answers people give to your questions. But as long you want to keep yourself willfully ignorant about the subject, I do not see how you can deploy that effectively. It would be like me trying to find some truths about Chinese medieval poetry by asking questions to a person that speaks only chinese.



Well, your nonsense about how evolution is interpreted (from seed to tree proves macroeveolution) is pretty close to mocking. The difference is that the usual caricatures of evolution by natural selection perpetrated by creationists do not offend me in the slightest. So why are you upset when we make fun of your talking serpents and prophets living three days in a fish or Gods taking a three days break for our sins, if you believe they are more plausible? It beats me.

However, I might mock your beliefs, not necessarily you. We mock the beliefs, not the believers. That is very important to keep in mind. More or less like you hating the sin but not the sinner. Not the same things, ja?

And you can put me on ignore if you want. Actually, i would, if I were you.



I asked you what the purpose of the appendix in Adam and Eve was, assuming you really believe in them. If the only purpose of the appendix is to protect against nasty bacteria, why did they have it? Were there pre-fall nasty bacteria or did God already know they might need it at design time? :)

Ciao

- viole

I answered you with a question, but since you didn't like my Socratic answer, I'll rephrase:

If you were God, and you knew man would Fall, how would you design his appendix?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You said that I assumed that humans having too many teeth "proved macro-evolution". If that is not a lie, show me where I wrote that.


For starters, you can't "interrupt a conversation" on a forum. The whole point of a forum is that anyone can contribute their opinion on any subject and inject their opinion when they wish. If you wish to have a private conversation, do it in PMs - or, better still, restrict your conversations to private functions rather than public forums.

For seconds, please point to where any poster said that having too many teeth "proved macro-evolution" and where I agreed with that.

For desserts, you clearly don't understand what "moving goalposts" actually means.


I wouldn't say it if you weren't a liar. But you are a liar, so I said it. Because you lied.


Well, the human appendix bears similarity to caecum of a variety of animals, but is far smaller and reduced in function:

http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/farm/content/animalstructure.html
"An adult human's digestive tract is approximately 6.5 meters long and consists of the pharynx, oesophagus, stomach, small intestine and large intestine. Digestion in humans is similar to that of other monogastric animals. However, unlike most herbivorous animals, humans have a relatively small caecum with a vermiform appendix. The appendix is a blind-ended tube connected to the caecum near the point where the small intestine joins the large intestine. The appendix appears to be a vestigial structure, reduced in size and function when compared to the same structure in other animals. One explanation for this is that the human appendix was once much larger and served a similar function to the caecum of hind gut fermenters.Over time, the diets of early humans changed to include more meat and less high-fibre plant material. This meant that there was no selective advantage in having a large appendix (and in fact there would be an energy cost in maintaining it), and individuals with a smaller appendix became more common over time . Modern humans would have difficulty extracting enough nutrients if they were restricted to a diet similar to that of ruminant animals. While we are encouraged to eat a diet high in vegetables and fruit, that diet is generally restricted to easy-to-digest material that is relatively low in cellulose: fruit, flowers and new stems and leaves. In other words, our diet is restricted by our inability to extract sufficient nutrients from high-cellulose plant material."

I find your particular obsession with the appendix to be odd, considering that it has already been explained that the appendix isn't a clear-cut example of vestigiality, and I have already presented you with several better ones.


So accusing someone of lying when they have lied is immature? Where exactly have I implied that anyone's "pants" were "on fire"? I believe my statements have been more comparable to "You have lied. Here is the evidence of you lying. This makes you a liar. I would like you to apologize and retract your lie." That's pretty far removed from playground taunting. Then again, this is just further evidence of your dishonesty and your inability to deal with this subject in an educated, mature and reasonable fashion.


Mainly, because they lie. Like you have. If you were mistaken, you could have very easily said "I apologize, I was mistaken, I retract my statement". So far, you haven't. Instead, you have continued to engage in personal attacks against me and resorted to further distortion of my statements. Why must you lie to support your arguments?

Lie = not a truth, not a fact.

You are lying, presenting opinions, "appendix appears to be a vestigial structure," rather than fact. I've offered you an opportunity to use the rubric you suggested to demonstrate the vestigial nature of the human appendix. You are STILL saying the appendix IS vestigial, not "possibly" vestigial, therefore my concentration on it at this time. You don't desire conciliation and growth, you desire to present opinions as facts, that is, you lie.

I find your particular obsession with the appendix to be odd, considering that it has already been explained that the appendix isn't a clear-cut example of vestigiality

Then why do countless anti-Creationists offer the appendix as truth and smoking-gun evidence?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Lie = not a truth, not a fact.
So where, "in fact", did I say that humans having too many teeth "proved macro-evolution"?

If it's not a lie, then where are the facts that support it? If it is a lie, retract it.

You are lying, presenting opinions, "appendix appears to be a vestigial structure," rather than fact. I've offered you an opportunity to use the rubric you suggested to demonstrate the vestigial nature of the human appendix. You are STILL saying the appendix IS vestigial, not "possibly" vestigial, therefore my concentration on it at this time. You don't desire conciliation and growth, you desire to present opinions as facts, that is, you lie.
Remember what I wrote earlier about you not understanding what moving goalposts means? Well, everything you just said is a clear example of moving goalposts.

Then why do countless anti-Creationists offer the appendix as truth and smoking-gun evidence?
Also this. Deal with the arguments I make rather than resorting to strawmen and fallacies.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
So where, "in fact", did I say that humans having too many teeth "proved macro-evolution"?

If it's not a lie, then where are the facts that support it? If it is a lie, retract it.


Remember what I wrote earlier about you not understanding what moving goalposts means? Well, everything you just said is a clear example of moving goalposts.


Also this. Deal with the arguments I make rather than resorting to strawmen and fallacies.

If the argument you are making currently is the one I ought to deal with, the argument you are making currently is I'm a liar. I find your comments offensive, especially since I've already told you I confused you with another poster who was making macro-evolution comments. How I'd like to currently deal with you calling me a liar is to ask you to apologize, how I will deal with it is forgive you as a Christian and move on. Is there something else you want to argue with me, other than that you feel I'm a liar?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
given that definition of the word lie, you are in fact a liar.

Lie = intent to deceive.

I don't think any of us are lying to anyone else on this forum or intending to deceive. What would be the point? Why would I try to "trick you" into loving Jesus Christ of your free volition? That makes no sense nor do I benefit fiscally or in any way from your possible conversion.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I answered you with a question, but since you didn't like my Socratic answer, I'll rephrase:

If you were God, and you knew man would Fall, how would you design his appendix?

It depends. Did God create the nasty bacteria that required an appendix against them?

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I'm currently taking probiotics and I don't think bacteria are wholly, or even partly, nasty. Would you like to rephrase your question?

My question is: who created the nasty bacteria? Are they an abiogenetical product if the Fall?

Ciao

- viole
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
My question is: who created the nasty bacteria? Are they an abiogenetical product if the Fall?

Ciao

- viole

1. I just said bacteria have functions and are not "nasty", and I would question you if you believe bacteria are "evil". Do you think bacteria are evil?

2. Perhaps this rephrase will be helpful: Is the appendix creation consistent with the rest of fallen man, tending toward entropy and death?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Sorry, not trying to be rude or a jerk. But I prefer to argue with someone who is more knowledgeable on the subject.
I would prefer to communicate with people more intelligence on the subject, but I don't think i am going to get it from you.

From past encounters with you, you are the same with every other misinformed creationists that I have come across here and other past forums that i have contributed to.

You are often misinformed in regards to science (ignorance), and often misrepresented the science (dishonesty), which makes your credibility dismal here.

Clearly you are not the one to discuss biology, physics or chemistry here with. You are definitely not the more knowledgeable one.

If I have to decide who is more knowledgeable in the theory of evolution, and choose between you and ouroboros, then I wouldn't select you because of my past debates and discussions with you. I am not even a scientist, but I find your "scientific knowledge" to sadly lacking.

Now, if I want to find a person who is expert in pseudoscience, fallacious wishful rationality or expert in conspiracy theory, then I would pick you. Again, it comes from past experiences with replying to you.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I find it extremely annoying when people say they believe in Evolution but can't even identify which theory/hypothesis of evolution they claim to believe and most people have no clue that there are several theories of evolution:

Evolution by Natural Selection, Front-loaded Evolution, Evolutionary Developmental Biology (Evo-Devo), Evolution by Natural Genetic Engineering, Somatic Selection, Structuralist / Platonic Evolution, Biological Self-Organization, Epigenetic Evolution, Evolution by Symbiogenesis, and Teleological Selection.

So which of those theories of evolution do you believe because some are very different in their ideas of the process and you can't just say you believe in Evolution if you can't identify which theory.

If you do not know what those theories are you can start here and I have no connection to the website:

https://www.classicalconversations....d-many-theories-evolution-and-why-they-matter
I believe the theory that all of life have a common ancestor. As you go back in time, humans share a common ancestor and they share a common and ancestor with apes whom all share common ancestors with all mammals and so on and so forth.

What cannot be supported is spontaneous generation of multiple complex organisms. The fossil record indicates complexity came about over time. First organisms were microbes, thats how life started.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I would prefer to communicate with people more intelligence on the subject, but I don't think i am going to get it from you.

From past encounters with you, you are the same with every other misinformed creationists that I have come across here and other past forums that i have contributed to.

You are often misinformed in regards to science (ignorance), and often misrepresented the science (dishonesty), which makes your credibility dismal here.

Clearly you are not the one to discuss biology, physics or chemistry here with. You are definitely not the more knowledgeable one.

If I have to decide who is more knowledgeable in the theory of evolution, and choose between you and ouroboros, then I wouldn't select you because of my past debates and discussions with you. I am not even a scientist, but I find your "scientific knowledge" to sadly lacking.

Now, if I want to find a person who is expert in pseudoscience, fallacious wishful rationality or expert in conspiracy theory, then I would pick you. Again, it comes from past experiences with replying to you.

As long as you recognize that in addition to in-depth chat on biology, physics or chemistry, I am RELIGIOUSFORUMS.com to talk about religion, that's fine.

I think you are attempting to use biology, physics and chemistry to nullify my religious beliefs.
 
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