The whole of Tanakh is a testament to God's relationship with Israel, no matter what they do.
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So are they all in hell now?
Teritos
Active Member
It always depends on who you mean by Israel, do you mean the Israel that does not want to listen to God, then no. They have lost their relationship with God, that's what the Bible says. But of course, it's a matter of faith. I believe that way because I believe in the whole Bible. You won't believe that because you don't believe in the Bible.
Teritos
Active Member
Every person that God has killed in the time of the Old Testament because of his disobedience has lost his life forever, there is no going back. (Revelation 20:14-15)
And anyone who dies without Jesus has also lost his soul forever.
Where? Don't give me NT stuff.
For a God who talks on about forgiveness this isn't all that forgiving.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I think God very much cares. When God set aside Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Israel, it was with a covenant that was "everlasting." To say that God reneged on this? I think that God would find this highly insulting.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Tanakh ends with the triumphant reentry of the Jews into the Promised Land and the rebuilding of the temple. There is no indication whatsoever that we were abandoned by God.
Indeed, the whole point of the book of Hosea is that despite our unfaithfulness, God is still faithful to us.
Teritos
Active Member
That is the point, this covenant that God made with Jacob is now with the Christians. But as I said, it is all a matter of faith. For me, the New Testament is the interpretation of the Old Testament. And for you, maybe it's the Talmud. Which interpretation is correct, we will see who of us will live eternally and who will not.
I agree with you in general, but maybe not the specifics of what you say here. There's Christians on both sides of this topic that go way too far. One side goes too far in hate, and the other in conceding the Gospel. There's a middle ground but neither extreme side will like it. Regardless, Christian Zionism is a blatant heresy and Christians have no business obsessing over physical land. I never believed that God has anything to do with the State of Israel. God will do what He pleases with that land and the Jewish people when the time comes, and we're not there yet.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
YOu cannot say that the covenant wchich God made with the Jews is now with the Christians without simultaneously saying God reneged on his "everlasting" covenant with the Jews. That's saying some pretty nasty things about God.
Most Christians, since the holocaust, have given up replacement theology, since it is the manure upon which the fungus of anti-Semitism grows. I encourage you to reconsider your doctrine. If other Christians can accept their new testament without being Supercessionists, you can too.
Teritos
Active Member
You're really coming at me with anti-Semitism now? Many peoples in the world had a difficult time, not only Jews, so don't come with this argument, otherwise I can't take you seriously.
Everyone can believe what he wants, and in the end we will see who was on the right side.
The issue is that Replacement Theology has often been the vehicle for anti-Semitism and it's reasonable that Jewish people take exception to it.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You are making me laugh. I'm a Jew. I'm hardly anti-Semitic. It's replacement theology that is anti-Semitic.
I realize that many people in this world are discriminated against, and as a Jew who champions Tikkun Olam (repair of the world) I fight their cause.
But I don't believe any People has been singled out for persecution and destruction for so long and so singularly as have the Jews.
Teritos
Active Member
Unfortunately, you misunderstood me.
Indians, West Africans and Armenians.... I think of all the West Africans probably had the worst time, and currently it is the Christians who are persecuted the most, but believe in what you want...
No, it doesn't. It's more complex than that.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - New International Version
The Jewish people are still very much a part of God's plan. Yes, the destruction of the Temple and the scattering of the Jewish people throughout the world is traditionally viewed as a punishment from God for rejecting Christ (as a people, because there were always Jewish people who converted to Christianity, obviously), in Christian thought. However, this just follows the same general theme throughout the Bible of God's people rebelling against Him and God dealing with it in various ways.
The thinking is, and you see that in Paul's writings above, that God is focusing on the spread of the Gospel throughout the world. The Jewish people basically have "spiritual blinders" on and will not accept Christ en masse but for an act of God towards the end of history, which is when they are envisioned as repenting of their rejection of Christ and accepting Him. You can find that in Revelation.
He didn't just abandon them or they don't serve a purpose anymore. They do. Thinking that the Covenant with the Jewish people was just tossed out of the window isn't the correct way of viewing it. It was fulfilled and expanded to the rest of humanity, which was kind of the point in the first place (Judaism just pushes those things into the Messianic age where everyone will recognize the God of Israel).
Paul also warns against Gentile Christians boasting and looking down on Jews since we were in rebellion against God ourselves before Christ came, so we have no room to judge and we still fall into rebellion (most "Christian" countries are essentially apostate at this point, particularly in the West). There isn't any room for hating Jews as a people there, let alone violence. The Christians who treated Jewish people in such horrible ways will have to answer for their own sins.
As Paul said:
"Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you." Not any room for Nazism and such like there.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
None of these groups have been persecuted as long as the Jews. Those who have persecuted us go all the way back to our enslavement in Egypt.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Lol. Christians don’t listen either.
Teritos
Active Member
What am I saying all the time? I am not spreading hatred. I am simply quoting the bible that says anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is lost. That is all I am saying. No hate. I am not saying that the covenant has been tossed out of the window, I am saying that the covenant has been fulfilled in Jesus and he is the door for all people. There is no longer a Jew or a Greek or an African or an Arab or a European, there are only two kinds of people, Christians and non-Christians, according to the Bible.
1 Corinthians 16:22
If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed; Maranatha!
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Teritos
Active Member
No, when Jesus comes back the door is closed like Noah's Ark, no one can enter anymore. We will justified by faith and not by sight. "Blessed are those who do not see and yet believe". Name the passage from Revelation to which you refer.