Who are the inclusive Hindus?

[Amala]

Namaste,

I learned recently that it is not an uncommon practice in Hindu temples throughout the world to deny entrance to menstruating women. In fact, of the 3 I contacted in my area in Michigan, 2 still expect women to follow this tradition. I contacted the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and they said they do not support this tradition. I called their local branch and they told me simply, "Everyone is welcome here." On the other hand, I read that in some temples in India, they have a separate entrance for menstruating women and untouchables and many have plaques outside that forbid entrance completely (to the former).

I guess my question is not why they practice it, because I understand there are mythological arguments and hygenic ones, too. I don't happen to agree with either, but that's beside the point.

What I'd like to find out is if there are branches of Hinduism, other than the hare krsna branch, that do not agree with this treatment of people. Which groups tend to allow everyone into their temples?

Respectfully,
Amala

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know of any. But if you go back to some mystic traditions within Hinduism, it applies to blood of all kinds, not just menstrual blood. So anyone with open wounds would be barred, or more aptly would bar themselves. Of course the tradition is just spread through the grapevine mainly. There's no test at the door. This tradition is found in several religions besides Hinduism as well. Some native traditions, Judaism, and Islam also have it, or treat women differently than men in other ways. But I'm going beyond your immediate question.

There are also birth and death periods of observing not going to a temple, not just for women and babies, but for the whole immediate family, depending on geography, sect, etc.

There are temples in India that ban people based on race, or 'non-Hindu' as well, but generally they are few and far between.

 

[Satsangi]

I have not heard or seen separate entrances for menstruating women in India's Temples and nor have I seen in modern India that untouchables are not allowed in the Temples.

But, I agree with Vinayaka that most sects of Hinduism do not recommend going to the Temple when in menses- which is three days from the start of the menses followed by thorough bath on the fourth day. However, there are no checks of any kind and it is entirely between the female devotee and the God/Dharma- whether she follows it or not. Just because of this rule, I would not label any of these sects as "exclusive" or "inclusive" because the women form the major percentage of devotees in most of the sects and they follw these rules out of their own volition.

Regards,

 

[Andal]

i have never seen this in a Hindu temple in the US or India. I've seen temples ban entrance to people of certain ethnicities in India but not based on blood. On the flip side I have heard from friends in Thailand that this is a common practice in rural Buddhist temples, so it's not unthinkable that this also happens in rural Hindu temples there.

 

[Amala]

My teacher, a native of Delhi, told me a story about how he and his friend, another Hindu now residing in the States, both very scholarly men, travelled to India to visit family and go on some pilgrammages. One of the temples is an especially attractive site for very spiritual Hindus. They travelled hundreds of miles to get there. When they finally arrived at the entrance, there was just such a plaque forbidding menstruating women from entering next to the doorway. His friend exclaimed, "That's sexist! I'm not going in!" My teacher looked at him in surprise, "Venki, you've travelled thousands of miles to come here!" But his friend would not enter a site that denied entrance to women - whatever their state. My teacher figures that there's no point in observing what cannot be enforced and went inside. But I agree with his friend. I want nothing to do with temples that deny entrance to its bhaktas or even that discourage anyone from entering and participating in puja. This is not to judge those who choose to live by such rules. It is simpy my path. I would try to avoid all such places, regardless of my physical state. And so to better accomodate those preferences, the question is asked, Which branches are not exclusionary? Is ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness) the only one?

Respectfully,
Amala

 

[Marble]

Shaktas, who worship the Divine Mother, should not forbid menustrating women to enter temples I think.

As for untouchables, I don't know.
First of all how would you pick out the untouchables in a crowd?
Since caste(lessness) has nothing to do with ecomonic status, you cannot tell from the cloth someone is wearing if he/she is a Dalit.

 

[Satsangi]

My teacher, a native of Delhi, told me a story about how he and his friend, another Hindu now residing in the States, both very scholarly men, travelled to India to visit family and go on some pilgrammages. One of the temples is an especially attractive site for very spiritual Hindus. They travelled hundreds of miles to get there. When they finally arrived at the entrance, there was just such a plaque forbidding menstruating women from entering next to the doorway. His friend exclaimed, "That's sexist! I'm not going in!" My teacher looked at him in surprise, "Venki, you've travelled thousands of miles to come here!" But his friend would not enter a site that denied entrance to women - whatever their state. My teacher figures that there's no point in observing what cannot be enforced and went inside. But I agree with his friend. I want nothing to do with temples that deny entrance to its bhaktas or even that discourage anyone from entering and participating in puja. This is not to judge those who choose to live by such rules. It is simpy my path. I would try to avoid all such places, regardless of my physical state. And so to better accomodate those preferences, the question is asked, Which branches are not exclusionary? Is ISKCON (International Society for Krishna Consciousness) the only one?

Respectfully,
Amala

Then probably you have found ISKCON and that may be the path for you. I do not know of other sects. Even if the Shaiva and the Shakta Temples and most Vaishnava Temples have no such signs, it is clearly mentioned in their sects. Also, in most Temples, none of the devotees are allowed in the inner Sanctorum.

Regards,

 

[Amala]

Then probably you have found ISKCON and that may be the path for you. I do not know of other sects. Even if the Shaiva and the Shakta Temples and most Vaishnava Temples have no such signs, it is clearly mentioned in their sects. Also, in most Temples, none of the devotees are allowed in the inner Sanctorum.

Regards,

Namaste Satsangi,

Thank you for your addition to this intriguing topic. That's an interesting point to consider. Could you please tell me what you mean by "it is clearly mentioned in their sects"? Where in the sect do you mean?

Respectfully,
Amala

 

[Amala]

Shaktas, who worship the Divine Mother, should not forbid menustrating women to enter temples I think.

As for untouchables, I don't know.
First of all how would you pick out the untouchables in a crowd?
Since caste(lessness) has nothing to do with ecomonic status, you cannot tell from the cloth someone is wearing if he/she is a Dalit.

Namaste Marble,

That's what I wondered, about untouchables. Neither of these would be enforceable. But that's not the point. It's a matter of principle... of views of humanity. What it boils down to in my mind is treating one person as more sacred, more worthy of worshiping God than another. That's simply not something I care to be involved in.

Respectfully,
Amala

 

[Amala]

I recently joined a Desi group in order to hook up with others of like mind. They sometimes meet at the two local temples I contacted that continue this tradition. Noticing that fact in the group's past and up-coming agenda, I wrote to find out if they ever meet at other temples and explained the conflict for me. The groups's leader was stunned to find this out. She is firmly against it. She has visted both temples while on her period many times. She is an Indian Hindu and is aware that this tradition is followed at some temples in India, but didn't anticipate it would be expected here, least of all in those temples.

Interesting.

 

[Amala]

Namaste

I have not heard or seen separate entrances for menstruating women in India's Temples and nor have I seen in modern India that untouchables are not allowed in the Temples.

But, I agree with Vinayaka that most sects of Hinduism do not recommend going to the Temple when in menses- which is three days from the start of the menses followed by thorough bath on the fourth day. However, there are no checks of any kind and it is entirely between the female devotee and the God/Dharma- whether she follows it or not. Just because of this rule, I would not label any of these sects as "exclusive" or "inclusive" because the women form the major percentage of devotees in most of the sects and they follw these rules out of their own volition.

Regards,

Of course, as I wrote in another reply, this is not about whether or not it is enforceable; it's a matter of principle... a matter of what kind of thinking is preferable to me.

Once one excludes someone, if not exclusionary, what else should it be called?

i have never seen this in a Hindu temple in the US or India. I've seen temples ban entrance to people of certain ethnicities in India but not based on blood. On the flip side I have heard from friends in Thailand that this is a common practice in rural Buddhist temples, so it's not unthinkable that this also happens in rural Hindu temples there.

Do you mean you have never seen a sign outside the temple? While I have never seen a plaque other than in photos of temples in India, it certainly is a fact that this rule exists in non-rural USA! I wonder why it isn't posted when it is expected of visitors. Given my recent encounter with an Indian Hindu woman who attended those very temples while menstruating, it goes without saying that not everyone is aware of this rule.

 

[Mysterystorm]

I have also never heard or seen anything about restricting anybody in this matter...atleast all the temples I have been to in New York City as well as some neighboring states. All the temples in NYC welcome all regardless of any circumstances. For those who do believe this tradition I think its more of an individual thing rather than a whole sect believing it. I can assure you iskcon is not the only ones I have been to many temples of different sects and never seen any type of restrictions atleast I never saw a sign or heard of any.

 

[Amala]

I have also never heard or seen anything about restricting anybody in this matter...atleast all the temples I have been to in New York City as well as some neighboring states. All the temples in NYC welcome all regardless of any circumstances. For those who do believe this tradition I think its more of an individual thing rather than a whole sect believing it. I can assure you iskcon is not the only ones I have been to many temples of different sects and never seen any type of restrictions atleast I never saw a sign or heard of any.

Namaste Mysterystorm,

That's nice to hear. I hope that's the trend. It would be interesting, though, to see what these temples you visit would say if you asked them flat-out if they have such a rule and expect women to observe it.

 

[Mysterystorm]

I'm curious myself now, I'll ask the next time I go or maybe give them a call even sooner.

 

[Satsangi]

Namaste Satsangi,

Thank you for your addition to this intriguing topic. That's an interesting point to consider. Could you please tell me what you mean by "it is clearly mentioned in their sects"? Where in the sect do you mean?

Respectfully,
Amala

The Dharma Shashtras or the Smritis that they follow.

Regards,

 

[Satsangi]

Namaste



Of course, as I wrote in another reply, this is not about whether or not it is enforceable; it's a matter of principle... a matter of what kind of thinking is preferable to me.

Once one excludes someone, if not exclusionary, what else should it be called?

Do you mean you have never seen a sign outside the temple? While I have never seen a plaque other than in photos of temples in India, it certainly is a fact that this rule exists in non-rural USA! I wonder why it isn't posted when it is expected of visitors. Given my recent encounter with an Indian Hindu woman who attended those very temples while menstruating, it goes without saying that not everyone is aware of this rule.

Namaste Amala,

What is "preferrable" to your mind is certainly your right; but then as I said ISKCON may be the path for you. Because in most of the widely followed Smritis that I know, it is clear that a woman in menses should abstain from everything- even at home- even cooking. I have never seen such a sign in ANY of the USA temples either as you say- can you mention which Temple are you talking in the USA that has such a sign or such an enforced policy.

But, as you say it is a matter of principle. The principle in most widely followed Dharma Shashtras by various Rishis is very clear and that remains the principle and the thinking- this may not suit your mind and many other Hindu or non Hindus' mind. They are free to follow it or not follow it; that is between them and the God/Dharma.

Having said all the above, the Shruti declares that "Ishavasyam sarvam idam" and "sarvam khalavidam Brahman".

Regards,

 

[Amala]

Neither of these would be enforceable.

I have never seen a plaque other than in photos of temples in India,

Namaste Amala,

can you mention which Temple are you talking in the USA that has such a sign or such an enforced policy.

Regards,

Namaste Satsang, Please find the answer to your question in the above quotes.

 

[Vinayaka]

Of all Hindu customs, this one in particular is probably the most difficult to accept by people looking into Hinduism. I've witnessed the confusion it causes many times. I`ve seen seekers move on to a new or back to a former religion because of it. Others just take it in stride. Customs like this are taught within the home for the most part, and it is expected to be taught there. But with newcomers to the religion, there was no chance for that to happen. There is also a `coming of age`ceremony done in the home, attended to by mothers, family members and aunts.

As far as exclusivity goes, there are other instances. In South Indian style temples, only male brahmins go inside the sanctum sanctorum (moolasthanam) to do puja. After a death in the family, people stay away from temple for 31 days. (Some is 21) After a birth, it is the same. To go to temple, one should bathe, abstain from meat, and in some sects, abstain from sex. There is a lot of discipline expected.

The way Hindus think is just so different. It is very complex and different from western (read Abrahamic if you wish). For one, there is a constant overwhelming belief in reincarnation and karma. In this regard, Hindus intuitively see themselves as souls inhabiting bodies temporarily, and then inhabiting another body temporarily. From this view, over the next 40 lifetimes (an arbitrary number) about half would be in a female body, and the other half would be in a male body. So looking at these customs from that point of view brings a balance. You fully know you will be èxcluded`in a future lifetime.

I follow the blood custom. If I`m working at the temple I attend, and cut my finger, I leave. i don`t return until its healed. Do I feel excluded. No. I feel like I`m practising my religion. A Hindu temple is not at all like a Christian church. It is a sanctified House of the God, where certain mystical and magical events happen. That sanctity is what keeps it such a special place. Certainly I don`t fully mystically understand the rituals or practises, but I do trust tradition.

 

[Amala]

Of all Hindu customs, this one in particular is probably the most difficult to accept by people looking into Hinduism. I've witnessed the confusion it causes many times. I`ve seen seekers move on to a new or back to a former religion because of it. Others just take it in stride. Customs like this are taught within the home for the most part, and it is expected to be taught there. But with newcomers to the religion, there was no chance for that to happen. There is also a `coming of age`ceremony done in the home, attended to by mothers, family members and aunts.

As far as exclusivity goes, there are other instances. In South Indian style temples, only male brahmins go inside the sanctum sanctorum (moolasthanam) to do puja. After a death in the family, people stay away from temple for 31 days. (Some is 21) After a birth, it is the same. To go to temple, one should bathe, abstain from meat, and in some sects, abstain from sex. There is a lot of discipline expected.

The way Hindus think is just so different. It is very complex and different from western (read Abrahamic if you wish). For one, there is a constant overwhelming belief in reincarnation and karma. In this regard, Hindus intuitively see themselves as souls inhabiting bodies temporarily, and then inhabiting another body temporarily. From this view, over the next 40 lifetimes (an arbitrary number) about half would be in a female body, and the other half would be in a male body. So looking at these customs from that point of view brings a balance. You fully know you will be èxcluded`in a future lifetime.

I follow the blood custom. If I`m working at the temple I attend, and cut my finger, I leave. i don`t return until its healed. Do I feel excluded. No. I feel like I`m practising my religion. A Hindu temple is not at all like a Christian church. It is a sanctified House of the God, where certain mystical and magical events happen. That sanctity is what keeps it such a special place. Certainly I don`t fully mystically understand the rituals or practises, but I do trust tradition.

Namaste,

Let's not turn this into a comparative religion discussion. There is another location for that on RF.

Thank you for your input. It is very helpful.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am certainly not intending to start any debate. Just providing information, and some background.