Who burnt more at stake: church or secular?

[Shadow Wolf]

Considering the church turned witches over to secular authorities, trying to say the Church isn't responsible is like trying to say Hitler wasn't actually responsible for Holocaust or the slaughtering of millions because he turned it over to someone else.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Alright.

Becektt is mention here and the writer mentions secular courts. Might be worth a read. It does seem that they existed.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2Ulp9cTtmHEC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=secular+courts+church+dark+ages&source=bl&ots=WChcjiTqz0&sig=IbVvSlL-I5t2z2Uy77dFDtdExL0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMI-vak5suNyQIVwh4PCh0-qQrf#v=onepage&q=secular courts church dark ages&f=false

AND

http://www.ocs.cnyric.org/webpages/phyland/files/the church in medieval life.pdf

 

[Robert.Evans]

Which Bible is "yours"?

My own.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Alright.

More:
"In many areas where royal justice was insufficient, church courts assumed jurisdiction. By the 14th century, as the administration of royal justice increased, controversy between the two powers also heightened. The secular authorities found ways to diminish the powers of the ecclesiastical courts. One was through appeal by writ of error in the secular courts. Then, in more subtle ways, ecclesiastical jurisdiction was limited to spiritual matters. The civil contract of marriage was separated from the sacrament. Other contracts and wills were brought into the secular sphere. By the 16th century on the Continent, the ecclesiastical courts had largely ceased to have any secular functions. Nonetheless, vestiges remained. In Catholic parts of Germany, for example, marriage and divorce remained within the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts until the German Civil Code came into force in 1900."

http://www.britannica.com/topic/ecclesiastical-court

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My own.

"My own" as in "the scriptures I wrote for my own new religion" or as in "my copy, which I scratched Exodus 22:18 out of"?

 

[dust1n]

Becektt is mention here and the writer mentions secular courts. Might be worth a read. It does seem that they existed.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2Ulp9cTtmHEC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=secular+courts+church+dark+ages&source=bl&ots=WChcjiTqz0&sig=IbVvSlL-I5t2z2Uy77dFDtdExL0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMI-vak5suNyQIVwh4PCh0-qQrf#v=onepage&q=secular courts church dark ages&f=false

AND

http://www.ocs.cnyric.org/webpages/phyland/files/the church in medieval life.pdf

Yeah, the first one has nothing to do with witches. It also does not seem to maintain any position about their being a secular government.

Your second:

"THE CHURCH IN MEDIEVAL LIFE

 During the Middle Ages, two distinct Christian churches emerged: the Orthodox Christian Church in the east and the Roman Catholic Church in the west. (The two branches split permanently in 1054.
 The Roman Catholic Church became the main stabilizing force in Western Europe. The church provided religious leadership as well as secular, or worldly, leadership. It also played a key role in reviving and preserving learning."...

Secular Role of the Church

The Church filled many secular roles during the Middle Ages. As the largest landholder in Europe, the Church had significant economic power. The Church also gained wealth through the tithe, a tax Christians were required to pay that equaled ten percent of their income.
 The Church had their own set of laws called canon law, and its own courts of justice. The Church claimed authority over secular rulers, but monarchs did not always recognize this authority. As a result, there were frequent power struggles between the pope in Rome and various kings and emperors.
 Popes believed that they had the authority over kings. Popes sometimes excommunicated or excluded from the Catholic Church, secular rulers who challenged or threatened papal power. For example, Pope Innocent III excommunicated King John of England in the 1200s during a dispute about appointing an archbishop.

http://www.ocs.cnyric.org/webpages/phyland/files/the church in medieval life.pdf

 

[dust1n]

More:
"In many areas where royal justice was insufficient, church courts assumed jurisdiction. By the 14th century, as the administration of royal justice increased, controversy between the two powers also heightened. The secular authorities found ways to diminish the powers of the ecclesiastical courts. One was through appeal by writ of error in the secular courts. Then, in more subtle ways, ecclesiastical jurisdiction was limited to spiritual matters. The civil contract of marriage was separated from the sacrament. Other contracts and wills were brought into the secular sphere. By the 16th century on the Continent, the ecclesiastical courts had largely ceased to have any secular functions. Nonetheless, vestiges remained. In Catholic parts of Germany, for example, marriage and divorce remained within the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts until the German Civil Code came into force in 1900."

http://www.britannica.com/topic/ecclesiastical-court

Amazing that witch hunts started to die down after ecclesiastical courts diminished.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Amazing that witch hunts started to die down after ecclesiastical courts diminished.

Idon't know when they did.
But witch hunts would seem to come from the understanding of the church.

My understanding was that there wasn't much difference between king, church, secular etc. And if the secular did help the lot of man, I would not be surprised. Even in the time of the lord the Romans ruled Jerusalem.
When man takes on the role of God without cause to think of humanity, you will get problems. That is the same with any authoritarian rulers.

Still, it seems there was secular, right? And if so, they must have burned as the church did (or perhaps sanctioned)

 

[dust1n]

Idon't know when they did.
But witch hunts would seem to come from the understanding of the church.

My understanding was that there wasn't much difference between king, church, secular etc. And if the secular did help the lot of man, I would not be surprised. Even in the time of the lord the Romans ruled Jerusalem.
When man takes on the role of God without cause to think of humanity, you will get problems. That is the same with any authoritarian rulers.

Still, it seems there was secular, right? And if so, they must have burned as the church did (or perhaps sanctioned)

Well, still don't know if I'd call them secular. To have a king sort of rule to his whim is hardly more secular, considering they all were more or less Christian...

Um, I'm sure something is "secular" about the past. That's about as vague as it gets, so I'm not going to deny that. But it's also an entirely different claim than the one in the OP.

 

[Unification]

According to some sources I have heard, the secular courts burned more and were harsher than the church through the "burning times". What do you think. Short quote from link below.....

"c) Secular Governments

Secular governments did most of the killing in the Burning Times. Lucky Witches were tried by the Church -- the truly damned had to appear before a secular court. Non-religious courts had the worst acquittal rates. Local tribunals were often virtual slaughterhouses, killing up to 90% of the accused. National courts (run by professional judges) killed around 30%. By comparison, religious courts often killed less than 1% of the people they tried. Secular courts also tried far more Witches than religious ones did. Most of the great Witch crazes were carried out by secular officials."

http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/burning.htm#Common Questions about the Burning Times

None of it is really accurate. No one knows for sure what exactly happened that long ago. It is all blind faith. One thing is for sure, is that human's tend to blame, choose sides, and to live in the past. Another thing that is accurate is that humans have poor nature, whether religious or secular. Slapping labels, who is more to blame, who did what more would be a human burning with poor nature in itself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Still, it seems there was secular, right? And if so, they must have burned as the church did (or perhaps sanctioned)

Would you call an authority that appoints bishops "secular"?

 

[McBell]

Would you call an authority that appoints bishops "secular"?

I suspect he associates the word "secular" with government.
I further suspect that it matters not if said government was a theocracy, he would still associate secular with government.

 

[rocala]

I do not know the definition of the'Burning Times' but I feel pretty sure that I could find more than one. The first site I looked at
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccanpaganhistory/i/Burning_Times.htm gives it as the period "from the dark ages to around the 19th cent".

I think that perhaps before arguing further as to the nature of courts then, we should decide when then actually was.

 

[gsa]

According to some sources I have heard, the secular courts burned more and were harsher than the church through the "burning times". What do you think. Short quote from link below.....

"c) Secular Governments

Secular governments did most of the killing in the Burning Times. Lucky Witches were tried by the Church -- the truly damned had to appear before a secular court. Non-religious courts had the worst acquittal rates. Local tribunals were often virtual slaughterhouses, killing up to 90% of the accused. National courts (run by professional judges) killed around 30%. By comparison, religious courts often killed less than 1% of the people they tried. Secular courts also tried far more Witches than religious ones did. Most of the great Witch crazes were carried out by secular officials."

http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/burning.htm#Common Questions about the Burning Times

And secularists are surely responsible for convicting Lebanese cartoonists for denigrating religion today: http://www.theguardian.com/books/20...-free-speech-sanctions-samarkand-crowdfunding

 

[Robert.Evans]

I do not know the definition of the'Burning Times' but I feel pretty sure that I could find more than one. The first site I looked at
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccanpaganhistory/i/Burning_Times.htm gives it as the period "from the dark ages to around the 19th cent".

I think that perhaps before arguing further as to the nature of courts then, we should decide when then actually was.

Some quotes of interest, which we must remember, are from a Catholic site. But that does not mean they are wrong however:

In the last 20 years virtually all reputable secular historians have revised witch death rates to 40,000 - 60,000, and that less than 500 of those deaths were caused directly by the Church through the Inquisition

Here is that word "secular" again:

When the Church was at the height of its power (11th-14th centuries) very few witches died. Persecutions did not reach epidemic levels until after the Reformation, when the Catholic Church had lost its position as Europe's indisputable moral authority. Moreover most of the killing was done by secular courts. Church courts tried many witches but they usually imposed non-lethal penalties. A witch might be excommunicated, given penance, or imprisoned, but she was rarely killed. The Inquisition almost invariably pardoned any witch who confessed and repented.

... in York, England, as described by Keith Thomas (Religion and the Decline of Magic). At the height of the Great Hunt (1567-1640) one half of all witchcraft cases brought before church courts were dismissed for lack of evidence. No torture was used, and the accused could clear himself by providing four to eight "compurgators", people who were willing to swear that he wasn't a witch. Only 21% of the cases ended with convictions, and the Church did not impose any kind of corporal or capital punishment.

... Ironically, the worst courts were local courts. ..."Community-based" courts were often virtual slaughterhouses, killing 90% of all accused witches... national courts tended to have professional, trained staff -- men who were less likely to discard important legal safeguards in their haste to see "justice" done.

http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/burning_times_inquisition_witches.php

 

[Robert.Evans]

Some quotes of interest, which we must remember, are from a Catholic site. But that does not mean they are wrong however:


Here is that word "secular" again:





http://catholicbridge.com/catholic/burning_times_inquisition_witches.php

The info apparently comes from:
Jenny is a wiccan historian writing for the Covenant of the Goddess website. I quote Jenny because of her wiccan background. If any web site would be against Catholicism this site would be but she had the integrity to report the results of her research. I also have found similar information from secular and religious historians. The article originally appeared in the The Pomegranate, the New Journal of Neo-pagan Studies. Lammas 1998, Volume #5 http://chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/natrel/pom/old/POM5a1.html a live article is here.

 

[Robert.Evans]

The vast majority of witches were condemned by secular courts. Ironically, the worst courts were local courts. Some authors, like Anne Llewellyn Barstow (Witchcraze), blame the death toll on the decline of the "community-based" medieval court, and the rise of the centralized "national" court. Nothing could be further from the truth. "Community-based" courts were often virtual slaughterhouses, killing 90% of all accused witches. National courts condemned only about 30% of the accused.

This is from the above post "article is here" link. Again, that word secular is used. I think we can safely say that secular courts existed.

 

[psychoslice]

It was the secular that brought us out of the dark ages, not the religious, we would still be there if they had their way.

 

[outhouse]

http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/burning.htm#Common Questions about the Burning Times

I would like to see credible sources backing this up.

As well as sources for their definition of secular.

 

[outhouse]

This is from the above post "article is here" link. Again, that word secular is used. I think we can safely say that secular courts existed.

What do you think a secular court was?