-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Who created God?
- Thread starter Misty
- Start date
Well, to flip the question, to those who believe in the big bang (and to be clear I believe in both god and the big bang) where did the singularity that kicked off the universe come from? In every creation theory there is something that must have been there in the beginning with no explanation of where it's from. Religion has God. Science has the singularity.
In truth if you believe in God, and God created everything including Time, God would be a constant. Time does not exist for Him because time is simply something He created, and as such He does not operate within it. Therefore it's not that God was around before the universe. There is no before, or after. We are applying Time, a limiting factor of our Universe to a Being that does not operate within it. It is in that sense that God has always existed.
Imagine that there is no Time, only one singular instance. Everything that has ever happened, is happening and will happen is occupying the same moment in that one instance. Because we exist in Time we experience these things linearly, but it doesn't have to be viewed that way.
In truth if you believe in God, and God created everything including Time, God would be a constant. Time does not exist for Him because time is simply something He created, and as such He does not operate within it. Therefore it's not that God was around before the universe. There is no before, or after. We are applying Time, a limiting factor of our Universe to a Being that does not operate within it. It is in that sense that God has always existed.
Imagine that there is no Time, only one singular instance. Everything that has ever happened, is happening and will happen is occupying the same moment in that one instance. Because we exist in Time we experience these things linearly, but it doesn't have to be viewed that way.
God is "The Son of Man," who is the evolving spirit which is currently developing within the body of mankind. With the death of the body of mankind within this three dimensional world, the sprit that has gained all his wisdom, knowledge and insight from the pain and sufferings endured by the body in which he develops, which pain and suffering is caused by the mistakes made by that body, (Which sins and mistakes He has learned from) He enters into the invisible fourth dimensional world that co-exists within this visible three dimension, for the kingdom of God is within us.
From there, He, the Most HIgh in the creation, the supreme personality of Godhead, who had developed within this three dimensional universal body, is able to descend through time to that infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity of Origin, and cry out,"Let there be Light," as he observes the resurrection of the universal body in which He, the fourth dimensional mind/spirit,which is the supreme personality of Godhead to the universal body, had evolved.
Last edited:
That accords with my thoughts and much better than I could have expressed it,
apart from the God bit about which I am unsure.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
It's not a who so much as a what, perhaps.
kejos
Active Member
Does that apply when people say that the universe was always there- or does flip-flop logic apply here, too?
Clearly the universe wasn't always there!
Even if that's somehow correct?
Well, it goes through cycles of creation and destruction. So who is to say whether it has always existed or if there was a beginning point to this cycle?
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
The grammatical process of fragmenting experience into classifiers precedes everything - including "God." The first step in the process of reality assimilation and apprehension is a "theory of mind" and attendant self identity ("I am"). In computer terms, one might say that the inherent structure of grammar is the system BIOS which boots the hardware and allows self-identity to function as the operating system, onto which are loaded and run various programs that gather, interpret and use data and produce output.
"God", "the Big Bang" and "creation" are an output from interpreted data. They don't spring into action until the fourth step in the process of thinking.
"God", "the Big Bang" and "creation" are an output from interpreted data. They don't spring into action until the fourth step in the process of thinking.
Last edited:
kejos
Active Member
So how did it get there?
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Science and nature, indeed our entire universe and the laws that govern it, to me, came from the Prime Mover, an unknowable intelligence, before the Big Bang ever occurred.
I can not prove this, nor do I worship this distant being. This is based purely on personal faith.
In relation to the Big Bang.
Cause and effect are physical laws that are dependent upon time/space.
We can see this in quantum mechanics. On the scale of atoms and molecules, the usual rules of cause/effect are suspended. The rule of law is replaced by a sort of anarchy or chaos, and things happen spontaneously-for no particular reason.
A typical quantum process is the decay of a radioactive nucleus. If you ask why a given nucleus decayed at one particular moment rather than some other, there is no answer. The event "just happened" at that moment, that's all. You cannot predict these occurrences.
So that even when looking at the physical laws within our own space/time observances, cause/effect on a subatomic level is not necessary. It is only when we reach a level of interaction with time/space that the cause/effect law is demonstrable.
As for the existence of the Singularity. Look at it this way, at one time the Singularity was an infinitely dense speck of potential space, time, energy and matter.
Where did/does it exist?
Space and time came about only a few plank times after the initial expansion. And only within the Singularity. All the known laws that govern space, time, energy and matter exist within the Singularity.
Asking where the Singularity originated from, or if it originated at all is irrelevant as we cannot apply reasoning based on natural laws beyond the Singularity/Universe.
We cannot say any cause is necessary for the existence of the Singularity because the necessity for existence is only a product of natural laws within the Singularity/Universe.
kejos
Active Member
At present, there is no answer. But there is an answer.
And there has to be a nucleus upon which observation can be made.
Big Bang? I have no idea as I am not a scientist, a deity could of course have created it, but there is no evidence that it did.
Zadok
Zadok
Singularity is a fun word for which there is no real definition. Often black holes are referred to as singularity and in theory all singularity is the same (same point) thus black holes in theory are the same singularity or connected and this gives rise to the theory of wormholes. In addition our current universe is expanding. The question is into what? Again the theory is that the universe is expanding into singularity; meaning all points outside our universe are the same point again meaning that our entire universe in surrounded or contained by the same singularity or point.
I am always a little amused when people insert that science answers questions that religion cannot.
In essence we understand that the very core of all things that exist is substance that has always existed. Things that really are have always been but perhaps not in the state or condition that they are now. In science, advanced by Einstein, we understand that matter and energy are in essence the same substance but in different states. The second law of thermal dynamics is then expanded and we understand that nothing is ever created or destroyed but instead experiences changes of state.
Many ancient concepts view the creation as an organization of things which previously existed into a more refined and usable state we currently enjoy. This is the basis of the ancient Egyptian belief that all things were created from a watery abyss. This concept of creation as an organization from chaos is not an impossible interpretation of the ancient Hebrew Scriptures from which Christians and Jews of our era draw from as a basis of our religions.
Thus it is not a stretch at all to understand that G-d is an actual being that has always been and likewise each individual life also has always existed as an entity and that all things are in some state of evolution of existence.
Zadok
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
No, there may be an answer. But one can not be certain at this time.
kejos
Active Member
That's quite enough to put the 'spontaneous generation' hypothesis out of consideration.
kejos
Active Member
Quite so.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
If you understood the scientific process at all, you would see that there is always the possibility that what is today known as a fact may be changed by new understanding tomorrow.
Dogmatism is for religion, not science.