kejos
Active Member
Indeed. So dogmatic utterances by scientists regarding the existence of a deity are among the most absurd of all!
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Who created God?
- Thread starter Misty
- Start date
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Further to this, my answer to this is, "You created god, right now, right now... right now." It's a constant creation/perception thingy, imo. God is as necessary as you believe it to be. The universe certainly does not require such a being in order to exist although many inhabitants of said system seem to need the concept to justify their won existence.doppelgänger;2075106 said:
Perhaps it is the plank in our eye that makes us believe that we are so very special as to be able to perceive god(s). It is ourselves we see, methinks, we're just not honest enough or bold enough to admit it.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Except when such an answer is as reasonable as any other... I'm just sayin'... :flirt:
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
God is uncreated, for if God is creator, God cannot be created.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Each information system (ie. each self-identifying mind that is integrating sensory input with memory) manipulates "God" according to its own needs and purposes. Part of those needs and purposes come from social and psychological templates acquired from group identities and language. But as with any other ideated object, "God" is adapted within the given information system to other memories, psychological needs, fears, emotional wounds and other memories - both consciously regarded and subconscious. There are as many forms for "God" as there are "persons" to whom "God" may manifest, though within these forms, there are recurring patterns that make up societies and group identities.
Zadok
Zadok
Usually it is the source of opinion that results in flawed conclusions. Which is most interesting when we are considering "creation".
Zadok
I don't really understand what you mean?
logician
Well-Known Member
Except that we KNOW matter and energy exist, we have no evidence whatsoever that any god concept is true.
And most current mulitverse theories have matter and energy existing forever, with innumerable universes being born and dying.
kejos
Active Member
This post above is not only non sequitur, it is off topic, and it's bigoted nonsense.Except that we KNOW matter and energy exist, we have no evidence whatsoever that any god concept is true.
And most current mulitverse theories have matter and energy existing forever, with innumerable universes being born and dying.
It's no advert for skepticism, iow.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
What reputable scientist have you heard do anything other than speculate on the existence of a deity?
Do you know the difference between dogma and speculation?
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Except that we KNOW matter and energy exist, we have no evidence whatsoever that any god concept is true.
And most current mulitverse theories have matter and energy existing forever, with innumerable universes being born and dying.
Actually, it is very relevant to the discussion. It does in fact follow that we know matter and energy exist. But there is no evidence whatsoever of a deity.
Perhaps you should look up the definition of non sequitur.
logician
Well-Known Member
It is none of the above, try opening your mind for a change.
idea
Question Everything
He was always there - as everything was always there - is a valid answer.
"There was never a time of nothingness. All that now is has always been and always will be. That which exists can change form, but cannot blink in and out of existence. The laws of conservation of mass and energy are well established and form the foundation of thermodynamics, physics, and all of the sciences. These conservations laws state that energy and matter can transform themselves into new states, but can neither be created from nothingness, nor can they disappear into nothingness. Everything is eternal. The origins debate is pointless. There is no origin." - read more here - Did God create out of nothing - by Jamie Turner - Helium
Except that we KNOW matter and energy exist, we have no evidence whatsoever that any god concept is true.
And most current mulitverse theories have matter and energy existing forever, with innumerable universes being born and dying.
We think that matter and energy exist. It is impossible to truly prove that anything REALLY exists at all. Skepticism, if applied at all, must be applied to everything equally. It goes further then DesCartes "I think therefore I am", but that is a big part of it. The only thing you can KNOW is that you exist. You and you alone. The manner of your existence is subject though. You may not exist in the form that you think you do.
Bottom line though, I think the point the previous poster was trying to make is that people say 'God always existed isn't a valid answer' because it doesn't answer where he came from. These people are usually operating under the assumption that everything must come from something. This clearly can't be the case though, because you are setting up an infinite chain that has no possible beginning.
If everything comes from something, there still had to be some first something that must have simply existed before everything else.
We can state that matter and energy have no clearly defined beginning, because by virtue of it's existence, it must have always existed in some form. Similarly, if you believe in God, the same logic can be applied to His origin. The only difference is that in the case of God, instead of an infinite chain that has no beginning, an infinite being is put at the beginning of the chain, and everything else is set to follow after it.
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My dear friend, this keyboard upon which I type has not always been here, but I know that it is made up of a gathering of molecules, which are but atoms that have been gathered together, and those atoms are only sub-atomic particles that have been gathered together and these sub-atomic particles, were created by the gathering together of waves which have zero mass and no electric charge and yet carry angular and linear momentum. And who know, but that the waves which are the reality of this keyboard, are but one wave particle which is not a particle at all, that occupies all the different positions of space that this keyboard takes up in many different positions in time? Time fractions to minute for the human mind to comprehend?
When the great intellect that evolved within this universal body that has evolved from the infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity from which this three dimensional dimension has evolved, which was nothing but momentum, the momentum that is the divine animating principle that pervades the entire universe and all therein, and is the activating force in all life forms, or the universal life force that has evolved "Intellect," the question still remains: what was it that created the Logos, that divine animating force to which all the information and experiences were gathered from all the life-forms that it has and will become?
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Zadok
Zadok
Creation at all levels is a most interesting topic. Usually when things (including things like ideas) which are very similar and show up a lot at the same time; it is logical to consider the possible of a single source or at least a very similar source but then, when there are many similar sources that usually indicates something else as the common source of what was believed to be the many similar sources.
Scientist call such related things - fractals which is the backbone of Chaos Theory. According to Chaos Theory everything which is concluded has a source which includes initial parameters. So the very best and latest scientific theory of complex things, demonstrates the results of the sources of those things. Thus I submit that when a wrong conclusion has emerged it is because of the source that put the chain of things into being (creation) that an invalid conclusion was by its nature wrong at the source.
Zadok
I eat from the tables that are prepared by all the different bodies of belief, and harvest from fields in which I didn’t sow and in which I have never laboured, I am not a son of any particular religious or scientific body of belief, I am a Son of Man. And I believe in an eternal cyclic three dimensional universal body.
Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non being, and again from non being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.
The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara or the cycle of manifestation, ‘The Great Day,’ which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by ‘Pralaya,’ a dark period, which to our finite minds seems as an eternity. ‘Manvantara,’ is a creative day as seen in the six days of creation in Genesis, ‘Pralaya,’ is the evening that proceeds the next creative day. The six periods of Creation and the seventh day of rest in which we now exist are referred to in the book of Genesis as the generations of the universe.
The English word “Generation,” is translated from the Hebrew “toledoth” which is used in the Old Testament in every instance as ‘births,’ or ‘descendants,’ such as “These are the generations of Adam,” or “these are the generations of Abraham, and Genesis 2: 4; These are the generations of the Universe or the heavens and earth, etc. And the ‘Great Day’ in which the seven generations of the universe are eternally repeated, is the eternal cosmic period, or the eighth eternal day in which those who attain to perfection are allowed to enter, where they shall be surrounded by great light and they shall experience eternal peace, while those who do not attain to perfection are cast back into the refining fires of the seven physical cycles that perpetually revolve within the eighth eternal cosmic cycle.
Origen, was a Christian writer and teacher who lived between the years of 185 and 254 AD. Among his many works is the Hexapla, which is his interpretation of the Old Testament texts. Origen holds to a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it. Every universe from the first to the last, from the smallest to the greatest, which have been created throughout the aeons off eternity, still exist in their independent Space-Time positions within the eternal and boundless cosmos.
The New international Version, the Scofield Referrence Bible, and the Companion Bible, all note that the phase in Genesis 1: 2; The earth was formless and void (Having neither shape or mass) should be correctly translated, “The earth became without form and void.” The Hebrew word “Hayah” translated “was,” means “To become, occur, come to pass, Be.” (Vines Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, 1985. “To Be.”
A Black Hole is a massive system so centrally condensed that the force of gravity prevents everything within it, even light from escaping. But how many Black Hole are out there in the boundlessness of the eternal cosmos? How much dark matter is hidden within those Black Holes? Nobody knows, science is still coming to grips with Black Holes, which are believed to be at the centre of all galaxies, and Black Holes devour everything that comes in contact with them.
Our Milky Way galaxy is said to be anchored in space by a super Black hole, which has a mass of over three million suns, and around the Super Black Hole at the centre of our Galaxy, orbits many other black holes, which were once at the centre of other galactic bodies that have merged with ours. The larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are orbiting our Milky Way galaxy that orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and will one day merge with our galaxy. The Super Black Hole at the centre of our being, will continue to grow as it devours the other lesser black Holes and dying stars and planets within this galaxy. And yet our galaxy is but one of billions of galaxies that are falling in toward one of the many massive “Great Gatherers” scattered throughout the boundlessness of the eternal cosmos.
For my own benefit, I classify all those galactic clusters as universes’ that are being drawn into one of the many Great Gatherers where they are condensed into the infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small centrally condensed systems, where they remain in a state of rest, gathering to themselves the expended energy of the active universal cells, until the critical mass is gathered and the intellect that had evolved within the previous universal body awakens and cries out “Let there be light” as that particular Son of God witness’ the resurrection of its body that had descended into the seemingly bottomless pit: The Son of Man being the first universal supreme personality of Godhead and the most high in the creation, the firstborn of the creator and Lord of all spirits, as the body from which he evolves is Lord of Creatures.
When our sun, which has a diameter of about 1,392,000 KM, comes to the end of its life cycle as a star, it will expand outward as a Red Giant, incinerating the planets in its system before collapsing into a white dwarf, glowing in the cloud, which is a small percentage of mass that is ejected with its collapse. The White Dwarf would be only one hundredth the diameter of the sun as it is today, and one cup of the material of the White Dwarf would outweigh 24 elephants. While a star that is many times bigger than our sun, when it comes to the end of its life cycle, it will expand out as a super nova, blasting off a percentage of its mass, which becomes a giant nebula cloud, in the centre of which, the remaining mass is condensed into a neutron star with a radius of anywhere between 12 and 20 KM and a mass of somewhere between 1.35 and 2.1 solar masses. Whereas, when a first generation Star, which is but a small percentage of the eternal and boundless cosmos, implodes in upon itself, there remains nothing but a Massive super duper Black hole from which nothing seems to be able to escape.
If the evolution of this three dimensional world began with an infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small primordial atom which was enclosed within the fourth dimension, and our three dimensional world had its beginnings with a Big Bang, then the cause of this three dimensional world would had to have been an entity which operates in a different time dimension than this three dimensional world and would have pre-existed the Big Bang.
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jmvizanko
Uber Tool
Well there are 4 possibilities.
1. A god came into existence all by itself with no cause, and then brought the universe into existence.
2. A god has always existed with no cause, and then brought the universe into existence.
3. The universe came into existence all by itself with no cause.
4. The universe has always existed with no cause.
Considering that all of the above involve something existing without a cause, I don't see how any of them are any less of a mindf**k than the others.
The whole idea, though, that something always existing negates the incredulity of why it would exist in the first place doesn't seem to make any sense to me.
1. A god came into existence all by itself with no cause, and then brought the universe into existence.
2. A god has always existed with no cause, and then brought the universe into existence.
3. The universe came into existence all by itself with no cause.
4. The universe has always existed with no cause.
Considering that all of the above involve something existing without a cause, I don't see how any of them are any less of a mindf**k than the others.
The whole idea, though, that something always existing negates the incredulity of why it would exist in the first place doesn't seem to make any sense to me.
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jmvizanko
Uber Tool
Could you please explain what anything in the above paragraph even means, and why it makes sense? All black hole singularities are not the same and they are not necessarily connected. The universe is not expanding into singularity, rather it is expanding from a singularity.
I didn't realize that religion has predicted the orbits of the planets and told us how particles behave on the microscopic scales...