Who Created the Universe? God or Mathematics?

[Sunstone]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

 

[Altfish]

Can I throw a sicky?

Actually, the only correct answer is, "I don't know".

 

[Curious George]

So, math or magic?

That is really putting us between a rock amd a hard place.

 

[wizanda]

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

God is the CPU that manifests reality mathematically.

In my opinion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

Mathematics. I don't see a reason to assume god would be in the question regardless how important this existence is to people. Why would it be a part of the questions, really.

But, god is more personal than mathematics. I'd like the word science better into choose words.

 

[ameyAtmA]

As I just said on your other math thread, mathematics is the nature of Bramhan'
However, it only manifests in Bramhan's dream and applies to Bramhan's dream-world which is this universe.

At the highest level it has no significance or application, so at the highest level Bramhan' does not live and breathe math.

Only in its dream level it does, and uses that math to spin this dream web

Because math is the inherent perfect nature of Bramhan' it is the foundation of Ishvara's existence (Ishvara = Supreme controller = God)

 

[Polymath257]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

I don't see math as a causal entity. It is a language that helps us describe the universe.

 

[Jumi]

Who? Is god or math like a human... I think not. Likely everything existed without need for personas like ours.

 

[Sunstone]

Who? Is god or math like a human... I think not. Likely everything existed without need for personas like ours.

Now Jumi, quit yer quibblin'. You know better than that. I could just as easily have said "Who or What Created the Universe?", but I thought "who" was sufficient for people to get my meaning, and therefore "what" was unnecessary. Is it really necessary to explain this?

 

[ameyAtmA]

Math is like an axiom or principle - to be understood as the inherent nature/property of the supernatural (Bramhan' the Original Consciousness) just as blinking is the inherent nature of our eyelids. Laws of math express the foundation without which universe cannot appear

That is what Shri Devi does. Her universe is precise and mathematical (also [geo]metric)

So universe sprang from Bramhan' , the Original Consciousness, first as the primordial Sound, then many syllable sounds, resulting in a dream web. Since His/Its mAyA makes Him dream it up, mAyA is mathematical by nature. This is why the resulting dream-universe is mathematical or we can say "does not break mathematical laws and principles"

Just as a poet composes poetic verses using sound and syllables as the base, Bramhan' uses Sound + math to compose the universe in the dream

 

[Quintessence]

I'm going to throw in a stick.

If we're to understand "god" for the purposes of this discussion as "an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe" I see no reason to insist it must be "sentient" given such sentience is nearly guaranteed to be inconsistent with the human understanding of that term at such a level of reality. Put another way, I see no reason to suppose the "ultimate layer of reality" would be conceptualized as a "self," much less that this ultimate layer would be "aware" or "sentient" of said self.

That is all. I'll just sit here in the corner over here playing with my polytheist toy box.

 

[osgart]

I have to go with math created God, who is a force creating in the universe. Logic implies reason, and thus humans are a natural result of logic. The universe is otherwise aimless baggage. Highly deterministic, and beyond ultimate prediction. The universe is a creator, eternal, and everflowing change. Infinitesmals come together to form new infinitesmals.

 

[ameyAtmA]

I'm going to throw in a stick.

If we're to understand "god" for the purposes of this discussion as "an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe" I see no reason to insist it must be "sentient" given such sentience is nearly guaranteed to be inconsistent with the human understanding of that term at such a level of reality. Put another way, I see no reason to suppose the "ultimate layer of reality" would be conceptualized as a "self," much less that this ultimate layer would be "aware" or "sentient" of said self.

That is all. I'll just sit here in the corner over here playing with my polytheist toy box.

Conscious is a better word. The underlying reality is conscious and it dreams mathematically. Nothing is random, even what appears random to humans is not random and is within mathematical randomness.

 

[metis]

To the OP, maybe both? [Spinoza, Einstein, etc.]

 

[Quintessence]

Conscious is a better word. The underlying reality is conscious and it dreams mathematically. Nothing is random, even what appears random to humans is not random and is within mathematical randomness.

Haha... I have even more problems with the word "conscious" than I do with "sentient." I feel the same problems apply with the word "conscious" only worse (now we're assuming the "ultimate layer of reality" has a sleeping and waking state like some biological organism?!), but your mileage may vary.

 

[Nakosis]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

Sorry, waiting for proof that an uncaused cause is a thing.
Until then, I'm willing to assume the universe has always existed in some form or another.

 

[Thief]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

yeah well.....numbers were invented by Man
it helps for levels of thought we humans cannot actually perform
such as.....comprehending the speed of light
grasping the size of the universe
the number of cells in the typical human
etc....etc....etc....

I think of God as the Cause and not in need of numbers

so Spirit first
numbers.....much later

 

[sun rise]

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I faced the following reply temptations:

• Mu (thanks to another thread)
  
• No
• There's a difference?
• 42

Then I further descended into the urge to complicate the question by asking which form of math are we talking about? I love the internet and WIkipedia:

• Algebra.
• Calculus and analysis.
• Geometry and topology.
• Combinatorics.
• Logic.
• Number theory.
• Dynamical systems and differential equations.
• Mathematical physics.

Then I was tempted to comment on "god" versus "God" as there's a critical and deep philosophical question embedded in the choice of lower case "g" versus upper case "G".

Finally the truth emerged and I started laughing as Hafiz as rendered by Ladinsky advised Someone Should Start Laughing – A Poem by Hafiz

 

[ChristineM]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

Without evidence of god one can only "assume" god magic as a cause

Maths is a method of describing something, in this case the universe, not the cause.

Who? Not likely... What more likely

There are many hypothesis of what created the universe, all have the benefit of being mathematically feasible or having some artifact or artifacts observed in this universe (or both). None of them rely on god magic.

So I'll opt for neither maths or god

 

[ChristineM]

I faced the following reply temptations:

• Mu (thanks to another thread)
  
• No
• There's a difference?
• 42

Then I further descended into the urge to complicate the question by asking which form of math are we talking about? I love the internet and WIkipedia:

• Algebra.
• Calculus and analysis.
• Geometry and topology.
• Combinatorics.
• Logic.
• Number theory.
• Dynamical systems and differential equations.
• Mathematical physics.

Then I was tempted to comment on "god" versus "God" as there's a critical and deep philosophical question embedded in the choice of lower case "g" versus upper case "G".

Finally the truth emerged and I started laughing as Hafiz as rendered by Ladinsky advised Someone Should Start Laughing – A Poem by Hafiz

42 is the ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything, not the cause. Although its possible that 42 in another universe is the cause of this one...