Who Created the Universe? God or Mathematics?

[Sunstone]

But "cheerfully" is critical? Really?

Got to hand it to you, Skwim. No one fails to spot a joke better than you.

Let's see: Within the space of 27 posts I asked an innocuous question whose only value lies in its humor, and Curious George commented on it. And, although these two posts only amount to 7% of the 27, you feel this threatens your thread with hijacking. Gotta say, this almost borders on paranoia, Sunstone. And considering the obvious, wouldn't it have been prudent to have remained silent about it all instead of inviting an off-topic reply such as mine here, which only extends your feared hijacking? Just askin'. .

You're reading way to much into my words, Skwim. Go back, read them again -- as slowly as you need to in order to comprehend them. They are not saying what you think they're saying.

 

[shmogie]

I respect your belief; but, when you express it as fact in comparision to science, we will challenge you on what you do know not what you dont.

Creative forces?? Im not aware of a creative force outside of "creation". How do you know the nature and factual presence of this source apart from science? (Science: psychology, psyiology, biology, chemistry, phystics, material studies of the outside world and human experience to their environment and self)

Is it a force? A deity? What is it?



Shrugs. I dont believe the bible at all; and, I dont know enough about the big bang theory (not interested in that type of science) to challange whether it happened or not. Best I can do is live with what I was born with and develop my spirit in self growth etc.

But, Im serious. Why do you question us about the validity of science creating the universe but when we ask you about god, you "dont know"?

There are a lot of non-ignorant people on RF who knows science but how can you question them when we ask you similar questions that you cant support? One sided debate.



The nature of the universe has been around and is the universe way before jesus set foot on the earth. In other words, the earth and sun existed before christ.

1000 years isnt that far away compared to over a billion before humans even came into being. Christianity is pretty modern compared to other beliefs like paganism.



There was no first cause. But some people want to believe in a first cause because it gives them purpose and origin. Nothing wrong with that.

Sciene didn';t create the universe, with respect, if you think about the statement, its is nonsensical.

Using the methods of science, science observes, measures, speculates, postulates, theorizes about the universe.

Science had no creative part in the universe.

I became seriously interested in astronomy as a teen, and cosmology in my 30 s I know a something about them

Again, with the deepest respect, I would suggest that you become a little familiar with the science, before you attempt to discuss it.

If you do, you will find that there was, indeed, a first cause of the universe

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sciene didn';t create the universe, with respect, if you think about the statement, its is nonsensical.

Using the methods of science, science observes, measures, speculates, postulates, theorizes about the universe.

Science had no creative part in the universe.

I became seriously interested in astronomy as a teen, and cosmology in my 30 s I know a something about them

Again, with the deepest respect, I would suggest that you become a little familiar with the science, before you attempt to discuss it.

If you do, you will find that there was, indeed, a first cause of the universe

Let me ask. What is wrong with science creating the universe?

Does gods way of creating the universe belittling him?

I'm confused to why you think science cannot create the universe. It's not a god so why is it a threat?

 

[Nakosis]

That is a poor assumption, based upon cosmological discoveries. The universe began, it is rapidly expanding and separating , never to reconstitute itself, ultimately all itś energy from itś first cause will burn out and be gone

You realize we have no idea the actual size of the universe, we have no idea of its limits. We know what we know but there is a lot we don't know.

I find the more I look into information we actually have about the universe the less certainty I have. Of course the less information I had knowledge of the greater the certainty.

 

[Revoltingest]

One perspective....
Physics is just our model of behavior of the universe.
Mathematics is just our model of physics & other things.
They don't create anything.
The universe....we know that it is.
But the how & why are above our pay grade.

 

[sealchan]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

God is a mathematician?

 

[sealchan]

As I just said on your other math thread, mathematics is the nature of Bramhan'
However, it only manifests in Bramhan's dream and applies to Bramhan's dream-world which is this universe.

At the highest level it has no significance or application, so at the highest level Bramhan' does not live and breathe math.

Only in its dream level it does, and uses that math to spin this dream web

Because math is the inherent perfect nature of Bramhan' it is the foundation of Ishvara's existence (Ishvara = Supreme controller = God)

Does Brahman dream? I thought it was Vishnu's dream?

Is math perfect? What about quantum physics or grand unification theory? Does that demonstrate for or against math's supreme qualities?

 

[shmogie]

Let me ask. What is wrong with science creating the universe?

Does gods way of creating the universe belittling him?

I'm confused to why you think science cannot create the universe. It's not a god so why is it a threat?

Was the universe made by science in a lab ? Are you trying to say the universe was created by natural forces identified by science as following the laws of physics, gravity, thermodynamics, etc. ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Was the universe made by science in a lab ? Are you trying to say the universe was created by natural forces identified by science as following the laws of physics, gravity, thermodynamics, etc. ?

The universe is natural forces. It does and is the laws of physics, gravity, etc. Do you know this?

My questions are

1. What is wrong with science (laws of physics, gravity, etc) creating the universe?

2. Is gods method of creating the universe through science belittling him?

4. Is science a threat to god?

Im trying to follow your line of reasoning. I know you arent ignorant to what the natural universe is, Im sure....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually this is question for any monotheist believer.

Was the universe made by science in a lab ? Are you trying to say the universe was created by natural forces identified by science as following the laws of physics, gravity, thermodynamics, etc. ?

Also Shmogie.

Can you find a non-religious resource that explains how god created the universe? Where can I find the first source?

I tried to search on YouTube but all of it are opinions and assumptions that god created the universe without actual logical and material correlations between the two outside of religious views and scriptures.

In other words, I cant find any explanation outside of bias.

 

[sealchan]

For the purposes of this thread, please cheerfully assume that there exists an ultimate layer of reality, "above" space and time, which is the first or primal cause of the universe.

Further assume that layer must either be god or mathematics, but cannot be both.

If so, are there any rational or reasonable grounds whereby we can determine that first cause is god, as opposed to the possibility it is mathematics --- or mathematics, as opposed to the possibility it is god?

I expect your answers to be on my desk by 5:00 PM Friday.




________________________
Please Note: Apart from defining "god" as sentient, and "mathematics" as non-sentient, it's up to you to define those terms in this thread. If necessary, please make clear either in context or by explicit definition how you are using those terms.

These are two fundamentally different metaphors for trying to understand what is inherently mysterious, the ultimate origin of the whole Universe...

God references the following metaphors...

• Complexity is designed
• Bigger outcome, greater cause
• God is first cause

Math in this regard references the following metaphors...

• Order is lawful
• Reality follows laws/laws determine outcome
• Matter is quantity

I will throw in a third idea for the creation of the Universe: Systemic. Systems imply the following metaphors may be used

• Behavior is cooperation
• Persistence is self-regulation
• Emergence is creation
• Creativity is balance

Metaphors are what the human mind reaches for to understand that which is not amenable to simpler rational analysis.

 

[sealchan]

42 is the ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything, not the cause. Although its possible that 42 in another universe is the cause of this one...

View attachment 25341

If 42 is the answer then I think we have finally discovered the great question!

This makes Sunstone the supreme being I think since he asked the question that resulted in the answer. Or is he simply the great mathematician?

 

[ameyAtmA]

Does Brahman dream? I thought it was Vishnu's dream?

VishNu is Brahman'. A form or rather a state in which Brahman' dreams. He is not a second.
In the non-causal ultimate dimension Brahman' IS, and like the Lotus leaf, is not attached (alipta) to the events and phenomena in the dream. As VishNu also - He is ever-unattached. Chaitanya. The dreaming is His Nature, hence very natural to Him. (daivI hyeshA guNamayI mama mAyA duratyayA - BG)

Is math perfect? What about quantum physics or grand unification theory? Does that demonstrate for or against math's supreme qualities?

Quantum or particle physics are theories that man has arrived at while studying the nature of Brahman' - which is Brahman's power to dream and manifest. These are great achievements of mankind - no doubt about it, and the studies of Nature of Brahman' - which is called Its prakRutI at transactional level (from the POV of characters in the dream), and dream-mAyA at the highest level (Brahman's level).

Any randomness, corner-cases and seeming distortion in the behavior and properties of prakRutI (Mother Nature) are not outside of mathematical laws.

If these theories say "what holds in normal environments does not hold at a certain dimension" then we have to apply the rules of that dimension which may be unknown as of now.

It is like saying limit as x tends to infinity. What holds when x =2 will not, when x = unimaginably larger.

We are not saying that the Supreme is predictable to humans. Not at all. That would be inappropriate. Humans grasp what they can from their platform about all phenomena - which are always within the boundaries of Nature of Brahman' which in itself is Infinite in all respects.

Shri KRshNa says in the BG - I am smaller than the smallest and larger than the largest. So all dimensions and levels are covered. Particle or galactic.

Those are some interesting points you have brought up.

 

[shmogie]

Actually this is question for any monotheist believer.



Also Shmogie.

Can you find a non-religious resource that explains how god created the universe? Where can I find the first source?

I tried to search on YouTube but all of it are opinions and assumptions that god created the universe without actual logical and material correlations between the two outside of religious views and scriptures.

In other words, I cant find any explanation outside of bias.

I can´t give you one, anymore than you can identify any non God explanation of how the universe was created. The big bang theory identifies the singularity as the first cause of creation, with no evidence it existed , how it, existed, or why it ¨exploded¨. So, science can no more explain it than I can, but assuredly, both positions agree the universe had a creation. and something that caused the creation. Was God the singularity ? There ya go

 

[shmogie]

The universe is natural forces. It does and is the laws of physics, gravity, etc. Do you know this?

My questions are

1. What is wrong with science (laws of physics, gravity, etc) creating the universe?

2. Is gods method of creating the universe through science belittling him?

4. Is science a threat to god?

Im trying to follow your line of reasoning. I know you arent ignorant to what the natural universe is, Im sure....

#1 nothing, God made the laws of nature
#2 Nope
# 3(4) nope

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can´t give you one, anymore than you can identify any non God explanation of how the universe was created. The big bang theory identifies the singularity as the first cause of creation, with no evidence it existed , how it, existed, or why it ¨exploded¨. So, science can no more explain it than I can, but assuredly, both positions agree the universe had a creation. and something that caused the creation. Was God the singularity ? There ya go

There is evidence of the big bang. There is no evidence that god created the universe.

That does not depreciate one over the other.

1. Why do you feel threatened that science explains the natural formation of the universe?

2. If you can't explain and support how god created the universe, how can I take your view into consideration when you can't explain what you believe?

I'ma try to keep the questions short and to the point since I am looking for answers to your viewpoint not to debate scientific facts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

#1 nothing, God made the laws of nature
#2 Nope
# 3(4) nope

How?

Please support your answers based on your logical conclusions independent of scripture references.

Edit.

 

[shmogie]

How?

Please support your answers based on your logical conclusions independent of scripture references.

Edit.

The laws of nature had to come from somewhere, you tell me

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The laws of nature had to come from somewhere, you tell me

That doesnt make sense.

How do you know that god created the earth when you
a. cant explain it and
b. shift the question around instead of answering it?​

God did not create the universe. BUT I am asking about your beliefs not mine. How did god create the universe?​

If you dont know, you can assume; thats, fine. But assumptions and hopes doesnt make it fact. (Hence faith)

Can you give me some idea so I understand where you come from?​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The laws of nature had to come from somewhere, you tell me

You are shifting the question.

If what you say is true, explain how and support it.

I have different beliefs. What are yours?