Who do you believe Jesus was/is?

[Katzpur]

How is it clear that Jesus is God? Jesus speaks well of His Father and never once says that He is the creator of the universe.

You're right in saying that Jesus never claimed to be the creator of the universe. God the Father, however, did state that His Son acted in this capacity.

In Hebrews 1:1-2 we read, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..."

It appears that the Son created the universe under the direction of the Father.

Go back and look at your book again, how many times does Jesus mention His Father?

Oh... about a gazillion.

Do you think Jesus was lying? Why can't you accept Him as He is? Is the Son of God not enough for you?

People want Jesus to be God because we (humans) think we are so special in the universe and we feel slighted now that we know the earth is not the center of it and that our human form had to evolve from more primitive forms.

I believe that Jesus Christ was divine and that He and His Father share the title of "God." This does not mean that Jesus is the same individual as His Father, which He is not. It doesn't even mean that the two are "co-equal," which I also believe they are not. Jesus not only mentions His Father constantly, He refers to Him (the Father) as His (Jesus') God. He also makes a point of saying that the Father is greater than the Son. On the other hand, there is at least one instance in which God the Father addresses His own Son as "God."

Hebrews 1:8 states, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Also in John 10:17-18, we read, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

Jesus Christ himself had the power to prevent His own life from being taken. He also had the power to rise again. He specifically states that this power was His. In other words, He did not need to rely on His Father to raise Him from the dead. How can we refuse to acknowledge someone with such power to be "God."

Once again, I am not a Trinitarian, and I do not believe that the Father and the Son are both part of a single substance. I believe they are two physically distinct individuals, both of whom are legitimately "God," as they are perfectly and absolutely united in will and purpose, and in mind and heart.

 

[Quiddity]

he's a zombie...
come on...he died and came back to life, "rose from the grave"...

what part of that doesn't scream ZOMBIE!




seriously tho...
i think he was just one of a number of good Jewish boys who ticked off the wrong people in charge (Rome) and was executed for it.

IMO, the Romans had no interest in executing Him.

 

[standing_alone]

I believe that Jesus may have existed, but not believing that a god exists (especially not the Judeo-Christian god), I couldn't consider him the son of god. He may have been a really influential person, however, and that could be why he has been elevated to this god status.

 

[Quiddity]

I believe that Jesus may have existed, but not believing that a god exists (especially not the Judeo-Christian god), I couldn't consider him the son of god. He may have been a really influential person, however, and that could be why he has been elevated to this god status.

Even from an atheistic perspective, you gotta give Him more credit then that. How many influential people existed through out history that had people with react in such a way? There is just no comparison in my opinion.

 

[standing_alone]

Even from an atheistic perspective, you gotta give Him more credit then that. How many influential people existed through out history that had people with react in such a way? There is just no comparison in my opinion.

Yes, if he existed, he certainly was very influential. I'll give him that credit - but I won't go as far as to credit him as being a god.

 

[Super Universe]

Go back and look at my book again? Super you have better tact then that.
I read the Bible almost every day. If you want me to start quoting scripture I will. But you've been on this site long enough to have read it all 100 times over.

Jesus was very clear that he and the father are one, right? Our minds may not be able to wrap around this idea, but if they are one then they are the same. Jesus was very clear he is the only way, right? He is the only way because he is God.

People want Jesus to be God because its the only hope for purpose,(at least for me). If Jesus is anything but God, are sins are still here and we all are heading to hell or just a box in the ground.

This is how it has been unfolded to me, I'm not trying to force my God on anyone. Jesus is who I worship and love just as if he is God. I'm his disciple and would deny my own life, family and friends for him.

Super I know where your coming from and understand your view, I held it for a long time myself. There is nothing either of us could say to change the view of the other. Either I'm worshiping the wrong person or your not worshiping the right one. But who am I to say who's wrong or right. I hope that when we pass from here I find everyone in heaven, everyone on this forum could get together and have a good laugh about what we have debated on.

What trickery does Jesus need to perform? Why wouldn't He just come out and say that He created the universe instead of promoting His Father?

Post one scripture that leads you to believe that Jesus is God and I will post three where Jesus speaks of His Father.

The bible teach's that God says of Jesus "This is my Son, and with Him I am well pleased." So is Jesus here throwing His voice?

Truthfully I tell you that God's love for us has never changed, it has never altered, it is not now more and less in the past. Jesus' coming did not suddenly save our souls.

The only difference is that after thousands of years of revelation finally people began to understand that their souls are saved. For their souls have always been saved. God did not change His mind, Jesus was finally able to open their eyes.

You think God creates everlasting souls only to discard them along with the flesh? As if they are equal? It is not possible. Who throws away diamonds because they come mixed with dirt?

But you choose to believe what you have been told, what has been passed down over the ages. And that is your choice.

You're not trying to force your God on anyone? How many do you think there are? Do you think there is a God of Islam and a different for the Jews? Mine and yours?

There is only one God and each of us is struggling to understand Him with what logic, intelligence, and vision we have. Some look for structure and ritual passed down through the ages. They believe men thousands of years ago had all the answers even though these men could not explain rocks falling from the sky. They think that there is nothing more to add, that there is no more revelation incoming. But it is there if you listen for it rather than stare away at your beautiful SUV and big screen television.

Then there are a few, like me, who see God inside ourselves as well as in every tree, flower, child, and bird.

If I see you in the afterlife it will only be in passing. There is so much more to explore, more to experience, more to create. Or do you still believe the earth is the center of the universe?

 

[Halcyon]

There is physical evidence a a Jesus Christ, of coarse He existed, everyone beleives that.

Well, not everyone.

I do not, however, I do not by any means consider him to be sentient.

I don't understand. I'm sentient, you're sentient, why wouldn't he be?

To answer the OP. Well i couldn't vote for anything because none of the options describe my beliefs.
I believe Jesus was a man who was annointed by God, by which i mean that through his own efforts he gained sufficient understanding/Gnosis to allow his mind to become one with God. He then went around and tried to teach people how to do the same.

 

[jewscout]

IMO, the Romans had no interest in executing Him.

nor do i think the sanhedrin or the kohanim would either...

what i do know is that he was executed in a traditional roman style of execution at a time and place where only Rome had the authority to exact any kind of capital punishment.

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, if he existed, he certainly was very influential. I'll give him that credit - but I won't go as far as to credit him as being a god.

You aren't alone in that camp...

 

[Quiddity]

nor do i think the sanhedrin or the kohanim would either...

what i do know is that he was executed in a traditional roman style of execution at a time and place where only Rome had the authority to exact any kind of capital punishment.

That's true, but the Romans did respect certain Judaic Laws so long as it was brought forth to the proper officials. And Jesus was wrapped and buried according to Judaic custom.

 

[Super Universe]

Well, not everyone.
I believe Jesus was a man who was annointed by God, by which i mean that through his own efforts he gained sufficient understanding/Gnosis to allow his mind to become one with God. He then went around and tried to teach people how to do the same.

Jesus remembered His true self but He was meant to. Before He joined with His human form He set the rules that applied to His life experience.

You may ask why the rest of us don't do this?

Think about it...

 

[Halcyon]

what i do know is that he was executed in a traditional roman style of execution at a time and place where only Rome had the authority to exact any kind of capital punishment.

I thought the priesthood didn't like jesus's teachings from the moment he arrived in jerusalem, and when he caused a rukus in Temple it was the last straw.
I figured they wanted to make an example out of him, that maybe they feared an increase in the number of radical 'prophets' in the wake of John the baptists death.

 

[Halcyon]

Think about it...

I would, except...

Jesus remembered His true self but He was meant to. Before He joined with His human form He set the rules that applied to His life experience.

I have no idea what this means.

 

[jewscout]

I thought the priesthood didn't like jesus's teachings from the moment he arrived in jerusalem, and when he caused a rukus in Temple it was the last straw.
I figured they wanted to make an example out of him, that maybe they feared an increase in the number of radical 'prophets' in the wake of John the baptists death.

yes but why would the Roman rulership bow down to a bunch of jews? even if they are the Kohanim or part of the Sanhedrin (which actually holds judicial power in traditional torah judaism), Rome proved later they could rule over Judea w/o the Kohanim in place.
why wouldn't the roman leadership have a problem w/ some guy everyone is calling "the King of the Jews"? This is a hotbed for rebellion and some guy everyone's looking to for military victory over rome is definetly going to be on the domestic wire tapping list to say the least.

 

[Super Universe]

If you see yourself as a fleshy human who lives a wayward temporary existence, then that is truly what you are. You deny your true self, your everlasting soul even though that is who you really are, the human form you are attached to is temporary. What human lives forever?

Your true self, the soul, is here to have a material life experience. Away from God. This is the reason that we do not fully remember who we are, because we have chosen not to. This is why an athiest is an athiest and nothing I say will change them.

What would God do if He was born human and did not remember His true self? He might just do exactly what you are doing right now...

 

[Abram]

Post one scripture that leads you to believe that Jesus is God and I will post three where Jesus speaks of His Father.

He is the image of the unseen God and the first-born of all creation, for in him were created all things in heaven and on earth: everything visible and everything invisible, Thrones, Dominations, Sovereignties, Powers -- all things were created through him and for him. Before anything was created, he existed, and he holds all things in unity. Now the Church is his body, he is its head. (Col.1:15-18).

As he is the Beginning, he was first to be born from the dead, so that he should be first in every way; because God wanted all perfection to be found in him and all things to be reconciled through him and for him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, when he made peace by his death on the cross. (Col.1:19-20).

He will invoke me, "My father, my God and rock of my safety", and I shall make him my first-born, the Most High for kings on earth. (Ps.89:27).

In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through him. All that came to be had life in him and that life was the light of men, a light that shines in the dark, a light that darkness could not overpower. (John1:1-5)

The Word was the true light that enlightens all men; and he was coming into the world. He was in the world that had its being through him, and the world did not know him. He came to his own domain and his own people did not accept him. But to all who did accept him he gave power to become children of God... (John 1:9-12).

The Word was made flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that is his as the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14).

By the word of God the heavens were made, their whole array by the breath of his mouth; he collects the ocean waters as though in a wineskin, he stores the deeps in cellars. Let the whole world fear the Lord, let all who live on earth revere him! He spoke, and it was created; he commanded, and there it stood. (Ps.33:6-9).

He who comes from above is above all others; he who is born of the earth is earthly himself and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven bears witness to the things he has seen and heard, even if his testimony is not accepted; though all who do accept his testimony are attesting the truthfulness of God, since he whom God has sent speaks God's own words: God gives him the Spirit without reserve. The Father loves the Son and has entrusted everything to him. Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life; the anger of God stays on him. (John 3:31-36).

I tell you most solemnly, before Abraham ever was, I Am. (John 8:58).

Those who love God are the ones he chose specially long ago and intended to become true images of his son, so that his Son might be the eldest of many brothers.(Rom.8:29).

Thus says Israel's king and his redeemer, the Lord God Almighty: I am the first and the last; there is no other God besides me. Who is like me? let him stand up and speak, let him show himself and argue it out before me. Who from the very beginning foretold the future? Let them tell us what is yet to come. Have no fear, do not be afraid: have I not told you and revealed it long ago? You are my witnesses, is there any other God besides me? There is no Rock; I know of none. (Is.44:6-8).

I saw a figure like a son of man, dressed in a long robe tied at the waist with a golden girdle. His head and his hair were as white as white wool or as snow, his eyes like a burning flame, his feet like burnished bronze when it has been refined in a furnace, and his voice like the sound of the ocean. In his right hand he was holding seven stars, out of his mouth came a sharp sword, double-edged, and his face was like the sun shining with all its force. When I saw him, I fell in a dead faint at his feet, but he touched me with his right hand and said, 'Do not be afraid; it is I, the First and the Last; I am the Living One. I was dead and now I am to live forever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and of the underworld. (Rev.1:13-18).

Here's 12! I agree that he addresses the father as another but still is the same. Must be the Baptist in me that agree's with the "trinity" (don't like that word but I argee to its point).

 

[jewscout]

That's true, but the Romans did respect certain Judaic Laws so long as it was brought forth to the proper officials. And Jesus was wrapped and buried according to Judaic custom.

they allowed jewish law to be followed where it didn't interfere w/ the Roman rule of law. they don't care how jews bury their dead, but someone who could be viewed as a leader for rebellion (like some guy everyone calls "The King of the Jews") would fall under Roman jurisidiction as an enemy of the state.
When it came to capital punishment the Roman authority ran things...

 

[Halcyon]

If you see yourself as a fleshy human who lives a wayward temporary existence, then that is truly what you are. You deny your true self, your everlasting soul even though that is who you really are, the human form you are attached to is temporary. What human lives forever?

Your true self, the soul, is here to have a material life experience. Away from God. This is the reason that we do not fully remember who we are, because we have chosen not to. This is why an athiest is an athiest and nothing I say will change them.

What would God do if He was born human and did not remember His true self? He might just do exactly what you are doing right now...

Interesting, but i don't believe that.

I believe all is one in God and that our individuality as we recognise it is an illusion caused by ignorance. I think an immortal soul, in the usual description, is an unlikely hope born of fear of the unknown.

 

[Halcyon]

they allowed jewish law to be followed where it didn't interfere w/ the Roman rule of law. they don't care how jews bury their dead, but someone who could be viewed as a leader for rebellion (like some guy everyone calls "The King of the Jews") would fall under Roman jurisidiction as an enemy of the state.
When it came to capital punishment the Roman authority ran things...

*shrug* (we need a shrug smiley) Maybe the priests wanted rid of him and used the Romans to get the death penalty.

Maybe the Romans wanted rid of him and used the priests to garner public support.

Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between, how can anyone ever know for sure?

 

[jewscout]

Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between, how can anyone ever know for sure?

easy!!

TIME MACHINE!!!!