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Who gave Jesus all authority in Heaven and Earth?

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Hello 1robin, I will be most happy to agree to your request, as long as you are agreeable to them also!

I will agree to them, if, you're not coming into this with the mentality that your knowledge is superior to mine and that you consider yourself to be the ultimate authority here.

I will agree if, you are not just wanting to push what you believe to be correct on me and that you can't learn anything that you don't already know.

Are you willing?

I think I can agree to that as I do not have any position to which I am attached to. I really do not care if your interpretation or the one I might have is correct so I think I can be objective.

While I am some what competent in eschatology, it is not among the doctrines in the bible which I have exhaustively covered and have very concrete understandings of.

So if we are all set, lets start with my contention being that the beast and the anti-Christ are not the same entities. The beast (according to many verses) is a very complex idea and one I think best described as a composition of empire or kingdoms. This beast is not a single ruler in my understanding but more of a force which assumes different forms. However it does not rule over everything, among the things it does not rule over is the billions of believers through out history. Instead of responding to what I think your argument might be I will await your response before I really dig into what the beast might be at this point. Fire when ready.

I thought of another question. It might save time if you would tell me what conclusion your trying to use arguments from revelation to propose. IOW let's say I agreed that the anti-Christ is a single person who reigns over the whole world. What are you trying to show that proves?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I really do not care if your interpretation or the one I might have is correct so I think I can be objective.

So then we're just going to chitchat? I "really do care" if my interpretation or the one you might have is correct. If my interpretation is incorrect, I want to know!
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
So then we're just going to chitchat? I "really do care" if my interpretation or the one you might have is correct. If my interpretation is incorrect, I want to know!
I did not say I did not care very very much what the proper interpretation of a verse is, you misunderstood. I meant that I do not care whether your interpretation or mine turns out to be correct. I would hope that no one prefers a verse to have an interpretation to the extent that their preference determines their conclusions. No presumption like that can lead to truth except but by coincidence. I have no preference whether the antichrist rules the whole earth as you say or only a portion of the earth as I have said. I only want to know which view is the truth, that I care very very much about. However eschatology is among the least understood and most cryptic of biblical subjects with the least certainty so I am always open to being convinced one way or another compared with much more important and much more emphatic teachings on things like salvation. As salvation is essential it has received the lion's share of my investigational efforts, end times prophecy being of far less importance and our having less certainty about it, it has commanded much less scrutiny.

Now if you are satasfied, let fly.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist

At risk of socking the tar baby again and becoming entangled I just cannot let this pass.

I have stated over and over again and emphatically qualified my remarks in no uncertain terms. You, yet again, are not taking the time to read or comprehend what I post and so have made another conclusion based on a lack of careful examination of what I say. Let this stand as an example of this, of which there are dozens and dozens of examples of the same in our recent discussion.

I have stated many times that the bible is extremely accurate in transmission. In fact it is way more accurate by far than any other work of any kind in ancient history. I never hinted, stated, or suggested that every version we have is 100% accurate. Instead I have stated over and over as well that the bible is according to even atheist textual scholars that the bible is 95% accurate, and according to theistic textual experts around 99.5%. Those facts indicate that the bible's textual integrity has no equal of any kind for it's time period. None of that remotely suggests it is perfect, yet it is overwhelmingly sufficient and reliable.

So pointing to a well known suspicious scripture among hundreds of thousands does absolutely nothing what so ever to call anything I have said into question.

I can supply how many errors are in the entire textual tradition, on average how many in various modern versions, how much variation exists between the two primary schools of tradition (the byzantine and the Alexandrian), or how much reliability can we have in what the originals must have said when recorded. Even if you doubted the last claim I could have laid out why what we have is easily enough to believe that modern bible's contain almost exactly what the original authors recorded. However you have given me know reason to think spending that much time explaining these issues to you would make any difference.

I am bored and wanted to give you one last example of why I have decided to end our discussion. No statement you quoted contradicts the other. So do whatever you want after this point, but it almost certainly will not include me. BTW I thought you began ignoring me, how can I get on your ignore list?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I did not say I did not care very very much what the proper interpretation of a verse is, you misunderstood. I meant that I do not care whether your interpretation or mine turns out to be correct. I would hope that no one prefers a verse to have an interpretation to the extent that their preference determines their conclusions. No presumption like that can lead to truth except but by coincidence. I have no preference whether the antichrist rules the whole earth as you say or only a portion of the earth as I have said. I only want to know which view is the truth, that I care very very much about. However eschatology is among the least understood and most cryptic of biblical subjects with the least certainty so I am always open to being convinced one way or another compared with much more important and much more emphatic teachings on things like salvation. As salvation is essential it has received the lion's share of my investigational efforts, end times prophecy being of far less importance and our having less certainty about it, it has commanded much less scrutiny.

Now if you are satasfied, let fly.

Correct, I misunderstood what you said! It is late, I will be back some time tomorrow.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Who gave Jesus all authority in Heaven and Earth?

Saul of Tarsus, who never met him ....


Saul did meet Christ o n the way to Damascus.

Paul was also vetted by all the other apostles and they unanimously accepted his apostleship.

Paul also won every disagreement between him and the other apostles.

Paul wrote more of the NT than any other apostle.

Paul was also more highly trained in Judaism that all the other apostles combined and probably all the priests in Israel.
 
What? I am confused here. The post you responded to here had the persons name whom my response was for. I went back and looked at post 137 which is the one your quoting and cannot find any reason you might have been confused about who it was directed at. It is formatted exactly as it should be with the name of who I was addressing. I noticed by accident you did not know who another's post was directed at. Could it be you do not understand how posts are formatted at this site? If you need help just ask.

As far as my posts to you are concerned. I might not have responded to your last post to me, I will go back and look into it. If I have not responded to your last post directed to me I will respond to it shortly.

OK . How do you edit a thread?
 
What? I am confused here. The post you responded to here had the persons name whom my response was for. I went back and looked at post 137 which is the one your quoting and cannot find any reason you might have been confused about who it was directed at. It is formatted exactly as it should be with the name of who I was addressing. I noticed by accident you did not know who another's post was directed at. Could it be you do not understand how posts are formatted at this site? If you need help just ask.

As far as my posts to you are concerned. I might not have responded to your last post to me, I will go back and look into it. If I have not responded to your last post directed to me I will respond to it shortly.

You don't believe in the trinity do you?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
OK . How do you edit a thread?

It was not your editing of a post that I was pointing out. However to edit a post, first you may only edit a post you made, and second there is only one step. You need only to hit the button labeled EDIT that appears in your own posts for a limited number of days after you post it. But if your instead asking how to do a certain kind of edit you will have to tell me what your specifically trying to change.

P.S. if I still have not responded to a post you sent me, it would be quicker if you just give me the post# and I will go back and respond. I am pressed for time or I would go back and search myself.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You don't believe in the trinity do you?
You post some very strange and confusing stuff.

A. I most certainly do believe in the Trinity.
B. Nothing in my post which you responded had anything to do with the Trinity, heck it wasn't even about theology.
C. If you search my prior debates you will find I have affirmed the Trinity is quite a few massive and in depth debates.

I really do not get what your talking about, please clarify what your doing.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Wow, that is a mouthful.

Reminds me of that famous but silly quote from Hawking: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing".
I think I am up to about 6 glaring faults in that single sentence.

Let's see how many yours above has.

1. Your prior worldview does not include a spiritual reality, yet here you posit one.
2. There is no such thing (that I am aware of) as information without a material media of some sort.
3. Then you mention a hard drive which requires the material your statement does not allow for.
4. There was also the grammar issue with saying "but I did not rid it".

However you are light years ahead of Hawking in that:

1. You were joking but while he made a joke, unlike you he did not intend to. Instead, that horrific statement of his has become a mantra of sorts among the atheist community. Sad.....
2. Your allowing for a non material spiritual realm is closer to my worldview than yours when we had our last discussion. That's progress...
3. As for grammar I would be a hypocrite^2rd if I was to really complain.


I was joking, obviously.

And, as a punishment for noticing my grammar weaknesses, i will keep my avatar for a bit longer :)


Ciao

- viole
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hawking theorizes that it may well be gravitational waves alone that might have started our universe off, so his use of the term "nothing" essentially means nothing besides the gravitational waves themselves. Taking his words out of their context is not helpful in understanding what he was actually saying.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Hawking theorizes that it may well be gravitational waves alone that might have started our universe off, so his use of the term "nothing" essentially means nothing besides the gravitational waves themselves. Taking his words out of their context is not helpful in understanding what he was actually saying.
Since you did not specify who your post was meant for I will assume it was for me since I mentioned Hawking's pathetic attempt at philosophy. If you want some tips concerning addressing a post to someone please let me know. Ok, so now to your statements above.

1. I did not quote his statement in any context at all. So it is impossible I took what he said out of context. To claim a statement was out of context is the last shriek a person makes in defense of a doomed argument in many cases.
2. Also in this case his statement's meaning is obvious without mentioning any context.
3. Hawking has arrogantly proclaimed the entire field of philosophy was no longer viable. However he hypocritically then spent most of his latest book making statements of philosophy which he has no competency with instead of science for which he is supposed to be competent.
4. Now then lets see that even if what you stated was actually what he meant concerning gravity waves. (however since he did not actually say waves I would like you to explain how it is you know he meant waves instead of what he actually said, but I will simply assume you are right and evaluate whether claiming his claim was about waves makes what he said less absurd).
5. As even the physics learned by freshmen in college (and I have far more than that) is enough to see that gravity or gravity waves cannot bring anything into being.
6. Gravity or gravity waves (whatever you think the difference is) are a property of mass. However Hawking posits the insane claim that gravity (waves?) brought mass into existence. This is ridiculous.
7. Additionally Hawking states that gravity (waves?) is the explanation for the universe coming into existence out of nothing. What the heck is he talking about. He has equated gravity (waves?) with nothing. Yet gravity is something and not nothing. So in effect Hawking is saying that something is the explanation for how something created everything out of something. This sounds like teenagers smoking pot discussing the nature of reality.
8. As all philosophers do or should know nothing has no causal relationship with any and all effects. And nothing (not something, even gravitational waves) is what actually existed prior to the big bang in the sense of matter, space, and time which includes gravity waves.
9. If someone was drinking the Kool-Aid that the theoretical physics are handing out so that they wanted to resurrect even a still born theory like what Hawking stated they might attempt to suggest that Hawking was talking about the law of gravity. However that is no help either as natural laws do not stand in causal relationships either. 2 + 2 for example has never created 4 of anything.


BTW I have a math degree but forget my qualifications. Everything I have stated above is consistent with mainstream physics, philosophy, cosmology, and applied mathematics. I first heard of Hawking's abortive attempt at philosophy in the non-scientific statement from him that I quoted while listening to a very well credentialed philosopher and a professor in pure mathematics from Princeton or Oxford (I can't remember which ).
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I was joking, obviously.

And, as a punishment for noticing my grammar weaknesses, i will keep my avatar for a bit longer :)


Ciao

- viole

I know you were joking, so was I. However your not bringing back the avatar I like is going too far. I am calling the internet police.

All kidding aside. You are among the more respectful, engaging, and intelligent posters here so I value our discussions. If you would like to debate something a little different than our usual subject matter would you like me to make an opening post for you to evaluate and respond to?
 

arthra

Baha'i
John 5:26 "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."

(King James Bible, John)

The above verse seems pretty straight forward. So God has given "life" to the son and given Him authority...
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I know you were joking, so was I. However your not bringing back the avatar I like is going too far. I am calling the internet police.

All kidding aside. You are among the more respectful, engaging, and intelligent posters here so I value our discussions. If you would like to debate something a little different than our usual subject matter would you like me to make an opening post for you to evaluate and respond to?

Thanks, I enjoyed our discussions, too. We both like Rush and Monty Python, which is unusual, especially the latter. I do not know many Christians who like Monty Python. As a matter of fact, I know one. Myself when I was a Christian. That does not bode too well, for the future of your faith, if I were statistically significant, lol.

As concerns topics we have not discussed yet, i am not sure there are any. As a matter of fact, I am reducing my posting activity mainly because of the time I can allocate to it. And therefore, I am not sure I could reply with the usual promptness and focus.

But I might get more time in the future, or better inspiration. I cannot exclude that I will find inspiration on other threads or just interefere every now and then.

Ciao

- viole
 
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