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Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think that the meaning is much clearer and harder to dismiss when applied to a group such as the JWs and other similar groups that use control mechanisms to keep their adherents in line.
I do not know much about what JWs do, only what I have read on this forum, which is limited, but I resent the fact that some people say that Baha'is control their members, just because we have strict laws. We are enjoined to control ourselves, but that is not the same as saying that the Baha'i administration controls its members. I am sure there might be some exceptions, if a Baha'is make public spectacles of themselves, but I see nothing wrong with admonishing them for that because they are setting a bad example for the Faith.

BTW, good to meet you, I always like meeting new people. I do not get out much, hardly at all, except yo go to work... :)
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The term "cult" does tend to get some very negative reactions. A term that is probably more applicable would be "high-control religion." I think that the meaning is much clearer and harder to dismiss when applied to a group such as the JWs and other similar groups that use control mechanisms to keep their adherents in line.

I did consider my using it brfore I did, for what it's worth. It does bring out a strong reaction, for sure. So how about the Bahai just being a 'high control religion'? I wonder how that'll go over. Not much better, I suspect.

People do escape. You're living proof of that. It's tough. Often that's almost your entire life. But it has to be so freeing, after a few years. Much like a divorce from a toxic marriage, or a friendship divorce from toxic friends. I have done that one.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What religious leader? o_O
It happens. The larger the faith, the more likely. Catholics, Protestants, you name it. It's in every faith, including mine of course. A convicted felon swami in Texas a few years back made us Hindus look bad. There is/was a case in Toronto of a Baha'i doctor, but it always comes up denials by Baha'i. They moved him to the teaching center in Haifa. No Baha'i here was even open to the possibility, let alone acceptance of it. Perhaps you will change that.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Again another misapplication of scripture. Was Baha'u'llah in heaven with Jesus when Stephen was stoned? How many "Christ's" are there? "God's glory" is not a person, anymore than the glory of angels or the heavens is a person.

Thats a good question, Yes, I see an unlimited number of Christs, as we know when translated means 'Anointed One' After all Christ was the First Messenger and will be the Last Messenger, the Alpha and Omega.

To put it into a material like vision, I see the Holy Spirit as rays of the Sun and lights the world in the age it is sent to and just like we are given a soul at conception, born of the human spirit, I see the Manifestations of God also have a soul born of the Holy Spirit. This is the Virgin Birth in my opinion.

Thus in the spiritual worlds to come, I see all the Messengers take form in their spiritual reality, all part of the same body of light we know as the Holy Spirit. I see the worlds to come also contains those that have passed on into their spiritual reality, some may be as rocks, some may be as angels.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
We? What's not acceptable to you, Tony?

There is/was a case in Toronto of a Baha'i doctor, but it always comes up denials by Baha'i. They moved him to the teaching center in Haifa. No Baha'i here was even open to the possibility, let alone acceptance of it. Perhaps you will change that.

Posting hear say without good proof and knowing much about the story at all.

This is what becomes the new term of fake news. No effort based in justice to find the truth of a matter. It is just used to offer a back handed slap and hope some mud sticks, even if there is no mud in the first place.

Personally I know nothing of this story.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I can empathize with this. When we moved to our current home, we didn't have time to sell our previous house, so we decided to rent it to a couple who, we thought, we our friends. They ended up causing a huge amount of damage to the house when they moved out and also didn't pay several months' rent.

After we repaired everything, we rented to a very responsible couple who were great, but they moved out after a couple of years because they had a house built for themselves. We went through a real estate agent to screen prospective renters, and a couple applied whom the realtor thought were not a good choice. But, just as you did, we thought we would give them a second chance and rented to them anyway. Bad decision...very bad.
Thanks, it is good to hear other people's stories because I feel very much alone in this, although I am sad that they have the stories. ;) But as everyone tells me, it goes with the territory of renting houses.

I never would have purchased a house as a rental. The reason we had one of the two houses we rent is because we lived there for 17 years and bought another house, and we moved out just when the economy and housing prices tanked in May 2008, so we could not sell back then. So we thought it prudent to rent it -- oh what a nightmare it has been! We did have some good tenants but the bad outweighed the good and most of the problems we have had are those who did not pay the rent. Nobody has ever done any damage to the house.

One reason we rented to the sex offender is because I knew he had the money to pay the rent. He sure did pay the rent on time too but he used that as leverage to try to manipulate me. It is true that the house needed repairs when he moved in but he badgered me for two months to rent it anyway, knowing it needed repairs. i told him it might take some time to get those repairs done but all i got was silence. He wanted a Lease and I have ample proof of how much he badgered me for one, but in the Lease it says "accepts house in its present condition." But he did not accept it; after he got in all he did was complain about the repairs it needed, which was due to water damage sustained by a broken pipe. That affected the usability of about one third of the house but I could only move as fast as I could to get them done.

The second month I offered to let him out of his Lease and give him his deposits back but he would not leave.... He just kept threatening me with inspectors and attorneys but I did not know he would actually try to sue. He did not get the attorney to write the demand letters till he was ready to vacate on his own... The tenant was a contractor so all along he tried to make me hire him to do the work but he was going to charge three times the market rate and what my insurance company allowed for the damages. It was right after I hired a contractor for the work that I got the demand letter from his attorney claiming he was damaged by the mold that was there because of the water damage. Funny coincidence... :rolleyes::rolleyes: The guy is a con-man and a schemer but because I am the kind of person who feels responsible and blames myself for everything he took advantage of that.

However, I knew what he was up to shortly after he moved in because it was obvious. I still wonder if any of this could be my fault, from a legal standpoint. I never hired an attorney although I consulted with several Legal Shield attorneys and they did not seem to think he had any case... Then the last LS attorney told me to report it to my insurance company, which I did. Now they are dealing with it but I have heard nothing in over a month so I am really worried what might be going on.

To claim damages, he would have to prove his health was affected by the mold and even then I do not know if I am culpable because we have no laws in this state that state that there cannot be mold, only laws that state that we have to do any repairs that would cause mold, and I was trying to get those done, although it took a long time. He could have just moved out but being a sex offender it would be hard if even possible for him to get another rental.

At the end of the day I will never know what his motives were so there is no point speculating... I just want this resolved so I can move on. My contractor did all the repairs from water damage and some additional improvements, and there are still some minor repairs that have to be done before I can rent it, but I have a contractor I trust so I plan to hire him.

On top of all this, the tenants that lived there for five years before he moved in owe me $6750 in back rent. They promised to to pay the debt when they left and then they ignored my e-mails. I plan to go to small claims court unless they will agree to pay me on a payment plan... How much more can I take from these people? It's just wrong. :mad:

Anyway, sorry I derailed the thread. I guess I just needed to talk. :(
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Posting hear say without good proof and knowing much about the story at all.

This is what becomes the new term of fake news. No effort based in justice to find the truth of a matter. It is just used to offer a back handed slap and hope some mud sticks, even if there is no mud in the first place.

Personally I know nothing of this story.

I told you about it before, and you said the same thing as this time. You denied it being possible back than too.

Edited for link ... bahaiworldnews
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No Baha'i here was even open to the possibility, let alone acceptance of it. Perhaps you will change that.
I just did. ;)
All humans make mistakes, it is the willingness to admit them and not repeat them that matters.

Sex is a potent force, and I am sure that all Baha'is are not above breaking the Baha'i laws. I find this very sad, because God is much more important than physical pleasure. I had to learn that the hard way. ;) It was after that that I read what Baha'u'lalh wrote about self and passion, and I was kind of ashamed, even though I never broke any Baha'i laws since I waited to have sex till I got married at age 32.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I just did. ;)
All humans make mistakes, it is the willingness to admit them and not repeat them that matters.

Sex is a potent force, and I am sure that all Baha'is are not above breaking the Baha'i laws. I find this very sad, because God is much more important than physical pleasure. I had to learn that the hard way. ;) It was after that that I read what Baha'u'lalh wrote about self and passion, and I was kind of ashamed, even though I never broke any Baha'i laws since I waited to have sex till I got married at age 32.

Yes, all humans make mistakes. Nobody is infallible.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I told you about it before, and you said the same thing as this time. You denied it being possible back than too.

Edited for link ... bahaiworldnews

Oh dear, the link you posted just confirmed what I said to you.

I need look no further than the heading to know what would be posted on that site would not have Justice in mind.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Oh dear, the link you posted just confirmed what I said to you.

I need look no further than the heading to know what would be posted on that site would not have Justice in mind.

He resigned, and promised to never practice psychiatry again. It was obviously a plea bargain. You're free to believe what you want. The point is that Baha'i folks are human, and not free of adharmic behaviour. I understand why you wouldn't want to read non-Baha'i stuff about Baha'i, but the fact of the matter is no group is immune to this stuff. it's very rare in baha'i, not because it's rare percentage wise, but because Baha'is are such a small group.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
"The division is entirely one sided. I didn't end relationships when I became an atheist. Christians ended those relationships, and it was because their particular religion cannot tolerate - I have letters from people who said 'We can no longer associate with you. You are of the devil." - Matt Dillahunty

This always makes me smile.....why would you want to associate with those who hold views that are diametrically opposed to your own....and basically insult everything you hold dear? You would have to hold your tongue on just about every subject in case it led to an argument. Who can have successful relationships on that basis? For the sake of peace, isn't it better to just not associate with those ones? If one was a former believer and has defected, then what person wants the company of someone who views everything they believe as hogwash...family or not.
Should we just pretend that there is no barrier and walk on eggshells? No thanks. That is just being a hypocrite. I can love my children without loving who they choose to become.

That's what I think when I see them on the street. They're all creationists, right? If so, they're probably mostly undereducated in areas like science and critical thinking, especially evaluating evidence. And then there's the locked in thing when faith extinguishes the last flicker of doubt.

And here we see the elevation of those in the science community suggesting that those who question science must be some kind of uneducated morons. Hang the fact that there are many scientists more "educated" than these detractors who disagree with the suggestions that science cannot prove. Apparently, science is a substitute for religion to some. Talk about "locked in"....:rolleyes:

Sorry if any of this offends you, Deeje. It's not my purpose. But don't forget that it is you who comes here to start a discussion on who has the truth, and I know that you think that it is you. I hope that you agree that others are entitled to rebut you openly. That's the purpose of the site.

I am not one to be easily offended IANS. I have been here for 10 years so please don't tell me what the site is for. You know what condescension is I assume....? There it is.

Being exposed to various viewpoints is good for all of us. But when my beliefs and the actions of my brotherhood are called into question by defectors, I will naturally defend them as I would any member of my family who is wrongly accused.
When twisted half truths are told, I will correct them. I have been a JW for 46 years and in all that time I have experienced the defection of quite a few. (Some in my own immediate family) In each case the one who defected was in direct violation of the Bible's rules for Christian behavior. When approached by the shepherds, after their conduct was called to their attention, if there was no remorse or if the offender refused the loving counsel offered to them, disciplinary measures were taken, not to remove them physically, but to disassociate from fellowship with them as the scriptures tell us to do. Those who are baptized into our Christian family, know the rules but out of spite, will often air their grievances publicly so as to get back at those who showed them up as false Christians. You can't have your cake and eat it too in our organization.

I am happy to report that my family members who left, returned and are now happier than they have ever been. Their brief sojourn in the world proved that it is no place for those who have experienced God's love and lost it. He is very forgiving of those like the prodigal son.

This is the story we keep reading from ex-Jehovah's Winesses. @Deeje implies it doesn't happen. We see the same from ex-Mormons and practicing Mormons: "They shuned us" "We don't do that. That's just disgruntled people maligning us"

We act in accord with the Bible's counsel to remove those from the congregations who violate the rules unrepentantly. Nor do we tolerate hypocrites in our ranks. We make no apology for that. But the other side of the tragic story is always about the "innocent victim" being badly treated by the ones who should have overlooked or ignored their unchristian actions. Sorry, but we don't operate like that. A good parent disciplines his children......God is a good parent and it is he who lays down the rules for his household. Break them without remorse, and expect the discipline to be applied. Its as simple as that. If you want to operate by your own rules, then don't come to us. Christendom will welcome you, and your money with open arms.

I have a grandson who was never baptized and who decided that being a JW wasn't for him. He doesn't expect friendship with former congregation members as he no longer accepts our beliefs, but we don't treat him like an alien. And he doesn't go around bad mouthing the Witnesses. He is still my grandson and I love him dearly. He still loves us and we still love him, but he understands that he no longer has the same mindset as his former friends in the congregation. They don't shun him, but they don't seek him out for company either. He has a new group of friends now, and is happy. That is the balanced approach.

All the sob stories we hear on the net are always from the "victim"....they are only "victims" if they make themselves out to be such. Its an art form for some. The only "control" exercised in the congregation is over those who have no self control. These are often the weak ones who want to blame everyone else for their problems. It is hard to help such people who play the victim card and try to convince others about how hard done by they are.

It has been my experience with those who suffer with mental health issues who sometimes leave over delusional thinking and people often avoid those ones because they don't know how to interact with the mentally ill at all.
Mental health issues can affect people in different ways as you are no doubt aware. I have had a lot to do with such ones, but we leave their care to the medical professionals. We are not doctors and we have no control over their perceptions.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
He resigned, and promised to never practice psychiatry again. It was obviously a plea bargain. You're free to believe what you want. The point is that Baha'i folks are human, and not free of adharmic behaviour. I understand why you wouldn't want to read non-Baha'i stuff about Baha'i, but the fact of the matter is no group is immune to this stuff. it's very rare in baha'i, not because it's rare percentage wise, but because Baha'is are such a small group.

Well I see with sending conversations in these directions, Deeje will be rubbing her hands together in glee and saying there you go, you guys will not bring peace. ;)

I would have to admit that was so.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Oh dear, the link you posted just confirmed what I said to you.

I need look no further than the heading to know what would be posted on that site would not have Justice in mind.

The poster of it was just trying to provide justice, Tony, from their POV. 'Justice' is 'my POV' often. But go ahead, dismiss his right to have a POV.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The poster of it was just trying to provide justice, Tony, from their POV. 'Justice' is 'my POV' often. But go ahead, dismiss his right to have a POV.

Hitler had a POV, as do many tyrants. Thus in the end the world will judge that POV and the right to have it. Our peace and security works hand in hand with our ability to sort the good from the bad.

Need I point out that a POV in no way needs to be based in justice and that some POV are not aimed at justice.

Thus if anyone wishes to share these as a valid and just POV, they must also take ownership of them and the thoughts they contain. If one is not willing to do that, then they should leave them in the cesspool from whence they came.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Edited for link ... bahaiworldnews
As the atheists often ask me, how much of this is verifiable? ;)
And if it is verifiable where can I go to verify it?

However, all humans err so it really does not matter what Baha'is have done, Baha'u'llah was either who He claimed to be or not. It is the evidence that support His claim that indicate that, not what Baha'is do.

It is interesting that these anti-Baha'i websites only go after Baha'is and not after Baha'u'llah. I guess they are an easier target... :rolleyes::oops:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Indeed. I read a lot of it. Your post 161 I found to be hypocritical. That was the post that inspired me to put something into this thread. But I think I'll be out now. Not really my discussion, as I don't need to argue with anyone about who has the truth. Let everyone else think they have it.

Every faith has a line that needs to be drawn as to what is acceptable and what is not. Cutting ties with family members simply because they decide to break Baha'i laws or no longer want to be a Baha'i is not what Baha'is do.

You are thinking about the example of a covenant breaker. This is an extremely rare situation and in my country believe there has been only one instance over the 100 year period that our Faith has been established in New Zealand within a current membership of about 3,000 people.

In regards truth, for you reincarnation and Moksha is a truth that no other faith has except Buddhists to some extent. Of course you believe Hindus to be correct and Abrahamics such as myself wrong. I'm good with that, but don't imagine yourself being immune to an "I'm right, your wrong" mentality.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Hitler had a POV, as do many tyrants. Thus in the end the world will judge that POV and the right to have it. Our peace and security works hand in hand with our ability to sort the good from the bad.

Comparing an ex-Bahai who had problems with Hitler? Well, isn't that handy?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As the atheists often ask me, how much of this is verifiable? ;)
And if it is verifiable where can I go to verify it?

However, all humans err so it really does not matter what Baha'is have done, Baha'u'llah was either who He claimed to be or not. It is the evidence that support His claim that indicate that, not what Baha'is do.

It is interesting that these anti-Baha'i websites only go after Baha'is and not after Baha'u'llah. I guess they are an easier target... :rolleyes::oops:

Oh don't worry, they go after Baha'u'llah as well, lol. You want some links?
 
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