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Who Has the truth? Who Will Bring World Peace?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Sadly, even though I am neither disfellowshipped nor disassociated, the majority of JWs still shun me as well as members of my family. Fortunately, my mother understood why I left, and she didn't shun me, but JW cousins and the majority of JW "friends" refuse to speak to me unless I agree to go back to the Kingdom Hall, which I will not and cannot do.

Several of my JW friends have left the organization as well, and our friendships continue to this day, so for that I'm grateful.

Anyone who leaves the JW organization and speaks out against it in any way is labelled as an "apostate" and is considered to be, basically, a "dead man walking." This is, IMO, yet another control mechanism employed by the JW organization to prevent current members from actually examining their religion (as they urge all others to do) and finding out things that the leadership would prefer remain hidden.

It is excellent that your mother is still there for you. I know in some instances even parents severe ties with their children. I can not think of too many more harmful actions than a parent to disown their child or a child to cut ties with their parents. There are exceptions of course such as sexual abuse, but not because our family members choose a worldview other than our own. Of course you should not remain silent but are obligated to speak out against a religion that causes division and estrangement. The religion of God should be like a healing medicine causing love and unity. If it causes hatred and estrangement then the medicine is really a poison. To leave such a religion is a truly religious act.

For me, Faith is about love for God, His Messengers and humanity. Love is about taking people as they are and understanding their journey even though it may differ from our own. Christ taught to see the good in all people and not to judge them (Matthew 7:1-4). He did not teach us to shun those who believe or think differently from ourselves.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The critics of the Jehovah's Witnesses are relatively uniform in their criticism and objections, which gives those criticisms credence. One hears and reads about an excessive levels of control over personal lives, some issue regarding the mishandling of pedophilia, and a habit of shunning former members.

Why do you suppose that the Jehovah's Witnesses have so many detractors? It is one of the few Christian denominations routinely criticized here on Religious Forums - perhaps the only one.

If it were any other way, I would not be a JW now. Jesus prepared his disciples for the hatred that would be heaped upon them for no valid reason. He said of them...."They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:16)....so what would we expect to see of Christ's followers if that were the case? Why did Jesus shun the world?

For this reason (1 John 2:15-17)....."Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever."
Why would we "love the world" that God says is "passing away"?...the pretentiousness and selfishness of the rich, love of money, greedy commercialism and dishonesty and corruption in every sphere of human governments. And in your world, everything is just rosy.....? Where did you buy those rose colored glasses? In Mexico? Bet they were cheap....:D

The critics of the Jehovah's Witnesses are relatively uniform in their criticism and objections, which gives those criticisms credence.

The criticisms about Jesus and his followers were relatively uniform in the first century as well....the Jews felt it gave credence to their criticisms too....nothing new, is there?

One hears and reads about an excessive levels of control over personal lives, some issue regarding the mishandling of pedophilia, and a habit of shunning former members.

That is complete hogwash. There are scriptural precedents for everything we do and practice. There are no excessive levels of control unless you are speaking about openly breaking the laws of God on issues of morality or drunkenness or in the way we represent our God in our everyday life. No one has to force us to obey God...we do so willingly.

The handling of pedophilia in the past was not correctly addressed in any organizational setting because back then, the damage done was not fully recognized. It is now. Why do you think that these issues are only being addressed now, decades after the fact? No organization that allowed these monsters access to children was fully aware of the damage it would cause them. As long as it is correctly addressed now, and offenders of the past are brought to justice, we can all work together to protect children.

Shunning is called 'excommunication' in any other religious setting and has been practiced for centuries as something recommended in scripture for those who willfully disobey the laws of God.

It is defined as...
  1. "A formal ecclesiastical censure that deprives a person of the right to belong to a church."
No one has a right to offend God by their conduct. Most churches do not adopt the practice of censuring because they fear losing their parishioners on whose financial support they depend. The Bible says that the shepherds are under obligation to enforce the rules, or they will answer to God for their neglect. Our shepherds do not get paid, so there is no incentive for failure to correct people to who want to ignore the rules.

Why do you suppose that the Jehovah's Witnesses have so many detractors? It is one of the few Christian denominations routinely criticized here on Religious Forums - perhaps the only one.

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me." (John 15:18-21)

Need I say more?

Maybe part of the public relations problems that the Jehovah's Witnesses have is due to this taking pride in being separate from the rest of the world, which sends a message that might not be intended - a sense of superiority, a sense that the rest of us are not good enough for the Jehovah's Witnesses to mix with.

When people are drawn to the Bible's message, they are already developing a distrust for the world as it is now. It is why they respond to the hope of it being fixed permanently. As I said, if humans possessed the ability and the will to make the world a better place, they have the resources and the manpower to do so....but because of selfishness, and abuse of power, they have never achieved it....and never will.

Do we take pride in being no part of this world.....we certainly do, but not the way you think.....its because it means we have not sold out to its lures and the fantasy that happiness is the result of what money can buy.

Jesus said...."Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Those who were impoverished spiritually were contrasted with the arrogant Pharisees who prided themselves on being "sons of Abraham" and who lived the high life, but neglected the poor and did not offer them anything but crumbs and condemnation. Jehovah's Witnesses the world over are living proof that God takes care of his own. No one in our spiritual family is starving or has nothing to wear. (Psalm 37:25)
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I asked you a question a few days ago on this thread and didn't get an answer. I asked you if the Jehovah's Witnesses, who have a distinctive and characteristic appearance - groups of two or more adults, often with a child, dressed like the 19th century - when evangelizing, don't seem to be visible anywhere else in our community.

This amused me to no end.....'our characteristic appearance is being dressed like the 19th century'?.....perhaps we did dress like that in the 19th century, but I assure you that is not the way we dress today. Perhaps living in Mexico has altered your perceptions? We dress like everyone else.....Jesus did too. Judas had to betray him with a kiss, remember?

Today, we dress modestly so as not to attract undue attention to ourselves. We want the focus to be on the message that we are sharing.

502015524_univ_lsr_lg.jpg


We never see the Jehovah's Witnesses as we have cone to expect them to appear at any of these functions, which is consistent with the denomination's view of the external world as being something to be avoided.

Your perceptions are definitely distorted.....I have no idea why. We do not copy the world's standards of immodesty or extremes in hairstyles or dress and grooming, but we don't look like something out of last century either. In Mexico our dress would be somewhat similar to what is worn by the general population.

202018410_univ_cnt_2_md.jpg


But then it occurred to me that I also never see these people in the market, in restaurants, at gas station, or any of the other public places people go. Do they dress differently for such activities so that they are not recognizable as Jehovah's Witnesses, or are they able to live their lives without the products and services of these public businesses?

I am smiling again.....seriously, what do you think we are? We are just like everyone else. We have lives apart from our spiritual activities. We dress accordingly. You would not know who was a JW just by passing them in the street or in a supermarket, going about their daily routine. We go to work and engage in wholesome recreation as well as fulfilling our spiritual obligations. We are human you know....
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Actually, it's about Emmanuel.

Immanuel means "With Us Is God" (Matthew 1:23) Jesus corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.” So it wasn't just the name but the meaning of the name of the one bearing it. Jesus was used by Jehovah in the 'salvation' of mankind because 'God was with us by means of him'. They are not labels. Isaiah spoke of Jesus as "the Prince of Peace". (Luke 2:11)

And so you have been indoctrinated to believe. Those of us outside of that bubble understand that much progress in the improvement of the human condition has occurred over those centuries. Monarchies have been largely replaced by democracies. Subject have become citizens with guaranteed personal freedoms.

Perhaps you see the wrong kinds of improvement? In your bubble those things are probably important as you sip your wine overlooking your nice view in a country you have inhabited for 10 years without even bothering to learn the language. When I said that I understood your position better now...that was all the picture I required. You have your paradise, but you had to find it in someone else's country.....you didn't like your own so you moved. We don't like the world that humans created so we moved too.....not physically, but in our hearts and minds, into a spiritual paradise that eliminates a lot of the unfortunate outcomes of following the trends of this world.

Rats desert a sinking ship because they know its in their own best interests to get out of there. We desert this world for the same reason.....probably for the same reason that you deserted your country.

In my view, human behavior has not improved at all...we just have bigger and more heinous weapons and more toys. The rich get richer and the poor don't matter. Tell me where that is not the attitude of those in government?

Democracies are a myth actually. Did you get to watch the video I posted...? Old but interesting....


None of this figures into your assessment of man's past and present. All you see is failure and unhappiness. To you, nothing has improved.

That is not true....I use and appreciate many of the things that have improved....but none of it cancels out what is horribly wrong and the price we have all paid for these "improvements". All you see is the good, but you ignore the massive price the earth and the living inhabitants of this planet have paid and continue to do so. Factor that in.

You've been sold a bill of goods that has diminished your life. You should be able to take pride in man's accomplishments, and recognize that he alone make make our world better or worse.

Well, one of us has been sold a bill of goods.....my life is enhanced by the knowledge that the Bible provides.
It would be severely diminished if I had no hope except for what humans can provide. Given their track record I would be in fear of the future...now I look forward to it.

The arc of history has been very encouraging that progress may continue as it has for an indefinite period.

I'll put my trust in the Creator who does not take kindly to those who destroy his handiwork with no thought of the future or the coming generations. When we speak of the gene pool in creating the individuals of the human race, what are we seeing now? We see a genetic cess pool. Children are not born healthy in this world. They are exposed to polluted air, water and food and artificial substances in their diet that are making them sick and more susceptible to mutated viruses.

More and more children are afflicted with life threatening allergies and varying degrees of autism since all these wonders of very expensive modern medicine came along. The maladies of the past just got replaced by the maladies of the present.....heaven help us in the future!

But you cannot share in that. Where some posting here are optimistic for mankind, rooting for if not celebrating human potential. You said earlier that you bring a message of hope. But what I see is the opposite - a message of failure and dropping out. The hope you offer is for the earlier hopelessness that you also offer. I'm not buying into either.

You don't have to buy into anything. You just have to be yourself. That is what all of us will be judged on....just being who we really are.

I'm pretty satisfied. I need no more from government than what I currently receive.

Yes, I understand, and in Australia we use the expression "I'm all right Jack"....meaning that if everything is all right with us then that is all that matters. "I am the star of my own life and as long as I am happy who cares about anyone else.....except perhaps that I might contribute to a charity once in a while to make myself feel like a good person."

But the American people recently got a taste of what their government actually does to improve their lives and how valuable and important it is when it shut down for three weeks disrupting thousands of lives.

And why was the government shut down for three weeks, disrupting thousands of lives? Did the action justify the the dismay and hardship it caused? If people pay their taxes, then they should be able to benefit from their government's actions....not be robbed of their ability to feed their families and pay their mortgages. Were you affected there in Mexico? Lucky you. ;)
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
They are not labels. Isaiah spoke of Jesus as "the Prince of Peace"

Jesus made it very clear it was not him that was the 'Prince of Peace', that title is applicable to the end of the age.

Matthew 10:34"Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.…"

Jesus Christ has also made it very clear there was to be much tribulation yet to come, before he was to return in the 'Glory of God' as the Prince of Peace.

This passage showing to me Christ and Baha'u'llah (translates as Glory of God) with God

Acts 7:55 "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God."

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So you understand about "ex's"? They always seem to have an agenda...to paint their former associates in a very bad light, whilst playing the victim to solicit any available sympathy. Anyone who has been on the receiving end of an ex's fury will understand how distorted the stories can become, especially when justification needs support by exaggeration or a twisting of the truth.

Perhaps a boy-girl relationship breakdown is not the best analogy. It would be interesting to collect reliable data as to why people leave the JWs as it would be for my faith. In the interim all we have is anecdotal stories.

I do wonder about cases where there has been mistreatment of a member of a faith community and it hasn't been appropiately addressed, then there really would be baggage like an Ex. Of course the breakdown can be due to the individual, faith community or a combination of both. I'm hearing from @RedhorseWoman she tried to fit in but the teachings of your church just didn't gel for her. If she no longer believes in the faith she was brought up, she should be free to leave without threats and coercion, don't you think? If she has had a negative experience in leaving such as being shunned by family members and friends then I can see the concern, can't you?

We are the same. When children are raised by JW's, it is our hope that they will follow our faith, but if they choose not to, we do not treat them as outcasts.....and as long as they do not try to publicly bring reproach on our brotherhood to support their choice, we will not shun them either. However, if they behave like apostates, we will treat them as such. They can leave and have nothing further to do with us if they wish, because if they were never baptized, then they were never JW's to begin with. Baptism to us is not just joining a church, but dedicating ourselves to God as a disciple of Jesus Christ. It involves vows that we view as binding upon the individual making them. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-6) Like a marriage, if you don't take the vows, you were never married in the first place. If you are married, you are not free to just walk out the door as if there is no expectation of you. If you want a 'divorce' there is a procedure and an expectation that things will not usually end well.

I think you are somewhat different @Deeje to other JWs. You were married for most of your adult life to one who wasn't a JW. I suspect that may have rubbed off on you in some positive ways. You shouldn't assume that because you can take a fair and reasonable approach to such all other members of your congregation do.

I don't see why people have to feel as if they are 'married' to a church. Its a very different relationship. We have different life experiences and change. My connection with God was initially through Jesus but then that expanded to recognise other Messengers or Great Educators too. I didn't think my spiritual journey would take me outside of the Christian Church but it did. That was nearly 30 years ago so I've made the adjustment.:p

Although I was baptised as both a baby and an adult, baptism isn't a requirement of my faith as a Baha'i. A Baha'i practice is reciting an obligatory prayer daily preceded by washing my hands and face. That is a daily commitment to God, not a one off event.

Anyone who wants to bad mouth people just because things didn't go their way are a dime a dozen on the net.
I have no concern about those who leave because if they want to come back, that is between them and God....but again there is procedure. The shepherds have a very heavy responsibility to keep the congregation clean, both spiritually and morally. (Hebrews 13:17) They have been appointed to this task and we follow the rules that have always been in place, but largely ignored by the churches, who are not clean either morally or spiritually, in my experience.

But what about those who have traumatic experiences for example sexual abuse? Are they to be shunned or silenced? Don't they get a voice? How about those who simply stop believing as you do and don't want to come back. How do you view them?

God has always operated organizationally because he is "a God of order". When Israel became numerous, he freed them from slavery in Egypt in spectacular fashion, with great displays of his power to show up the useless gods of Egypt. He then formed them into one nation and divided them up into tribes, according to their family patriarchs. He then offered them the opportunity to become his people, but they had to agree to abide by his laws, which carried stiff penalties if they disobeyed. They unanimously agreed, but as time went on, they disobediently chose to go down many false paths and eventually lost his favor. He kept them in existence until he had produced the promised Messiah....then he "abandoned" them as serial covenant breakers and murderers. (Matthew 23:37-39; John 8:44)

When Jesus came, the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" were drawn out of that now apostate system, and into a much simpler form of worship....but still very organized. Christians formed congregations and had a body of 'elders' to "shepherd the flock". These shepherds were given authority within the congregation to judge wrongdoers. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) Any unrepentant ones, guilty of breaking the rules were to be expelled from fellowship with the faithful. No one was free to bring in foreign teachings from outside of what Christ taught. (2 John :9-10)

Hey, I'm well acquainted with the God of Abraham. He's the same God I worship too. :D Of course you don't believe that.

The problem with the scripture you quote is that not all who leave the JWs are wrongdoers who are idoltars, fornicators or drunks!

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 13:11

I hope that isn't what you think of all those who leave your congregation?

Even so, our commitment to Jesus Christ is a true commitment nonetheless; its not like joining a club. There are rules that apply to all collectively.....and if we 'love God and our neighbor' then we will be happy to comply. We don't get to set our own rules, and there are penalties if we break the ones that God made. If you know the rules beforehand, how can you cry foul when you are disciplined for breaking them? Whining does not change anything.

Any Faith community has rules that are necessary for all to abide by. But are they rules from man or from God? The JW rules look man made to me. Sure you can use ancient scripture to make it say argue for shunning and disfellowshipping for all sorts of reasons. But the world was very different when Paul was establishing churches amongst the Gentiles.

I really can't see any problem if someone wants to leave. The JWs are simply leaving themselves open to criticism with their shunning and disfellowshipping. Just sayin...;)

Do you think that we don't have things in common with others? We are part of the population too and have to rub shoulders and get along with all sorts of people every day. But socially, we are not a lot different to anyone else. We tend to gravitate towards those with whom we share common interests. As a global spiritual family, we take care of each other like no other religious organization that I know of. I am proud to be part of this family, though I am under no delusions that there may be those who do not display the necessary qualities for a Christian, but God will sort them out. They don't stay. Do they jump or are they pushed? God knows.

I'm pleased to hear a statement of shared humanity from you. We are all the same. The problem is when we imagine ourselves to be above others because of the faith we follow.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Nor do I see any valid identification for your prophet or any authentic verification of your belief system in the Bible....so agreeing to disagree is all we can do. Faith is what it is....it can be completely misdirected. We will all find out in the end.

Hey, that's exactly how the Jews felt about Jesus. They simply didn't see Him as fulfilling one verse of the Tanakh. He had no authority from God in their eyes.

Of course I'm not expecting you as a JW to suddenly accept Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah as Manifestations of God along with Moses and Jesus anytime soon. :D

If others do not accept Baha'u'llah as a prophet, then nothing he said will make a scrap of difference to anyone else but yourselves....he is not a genuine prophet to me....only to Baha'i's.

Christianity started with small numbers. As a worldwide faith community we have similar numbers to your congregation. I wouldn't be so dismissive.:)

Did you miss the disclaimer at the end of your cited article...?

"Joel Smith is a member of the Baha'i Faith living in Carbondale, Southern Illinois in the United States. This article has been adapted from an article written by Phil Turner. The opinions expressed in this article constitute Joel Smith's own personal understanding and do not necessarily represent the official position of the Baha'i Faith or it's teachings." Kind of undoes the whole argument IMO.

Jesus was assumed to be the son of Joseph....."When He [Jesus] began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli".... (Luke 3:23) This genealogy is about the male line.

As Jesus taught a mostly Jewish audience, so Baha'u'llah taught a Muslim audience. The question of geneology and Baha'u'llah linking Himself to King David didn't arise. Although Baha'u'llah's credentials in regards the Bible are clearly stated throughout our writings the actual details of geneology is a matter of research.

Although you have geneologies in the Bible you simply can't avaoid the problem of male lineage.

Genealogy of Jesus - Wikipedia

At least Baha'i scholars has the humility to seperate their own opinions from that of our faith. The JWs appear unable to seperate their churches interpretations from fact assuming the two are the same.

Here's another link that males clear a Baha'i perspective regarding Baha'u'llah's geneology intersecting King Davids.

Are We Descendants of Our Mothers or Our Fathers?

You are entitled to your opinion, but I will never share it. Jesus was not God but acted as the LOGOS. No other is said to fill that role but Jesus.

Of course. Spoken like a true JW.:)

Wow!....a statement like that just makes me smile. It was foretold that the 'weeds' of false Christianity would grow and basically overshadow the 'wheat' until the time of the harvest. Tell me what has Baha'u'llah accomplished since his death? Can you tell me why Christ had to die twice in the flesh? Where is Jesus' tomb? Baha'u'llah has a very ornate resting place....how come?

Jesus said that 'the world would behold him no more'......yet you say that he came again as a human. There was to be no such thing according to scripture...unless of course you make up your own or have someone do it for you? I guess 'scripture' can become whatever you want it to be.

While the Gospel author's have created a theological narrative in regards Christ's resurrection, taking it literally has too many problems to ignore. I understand that believing Jesus literally ascended through the stratosphere into outer space to be with His Father in heaven as recorded in Acts of the Apostles 1:9-11 but that relies on an ancient cosmology that is no longer credible.

t will indeed. Thank God that Jesus is the appointed judge.....I can't see where God ever appointed Baha'u'llah as anything. He is not even mentioned.

According to my beliefs, God will show us all soon what he thinks of all this world's religions.

You won't find the name Jesus specifically mentioned in the Tanakh either. Funny thing that. Baha'u'llah as you know is Arabic for 'Glory of God'. The phrase is mentioned on multiple occasions through the Bible.

I know what you believe about what is to come in regards literal fulfilment of Revelation. For me, most of the events in the book of revelation have taken place. Unfortunately you missed the Apocalypse, Armageddon and the Return of Christ! Then again so did William Miller. At least he correctly calculated the date!:)
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
For me, Faith is about love for God, His Messengers and humanity. Love is about taking people as they are and understanding their journey even though it may differ from our own. Christ taught to see the good in all people and not to judge them (Matthew 7:1-4). He did not teach us to shun those who believe or think differently from ourselves.

I've read a lot about Baha'i shunning. Is this the pot calling the kettle black? So many similarities. I'd sure hate to see a person get out of one cult, and step right into another.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
There is most definitely a sense of superiority within the JW organization. After all, JWs "know" that they are "God's chosen people" and they "know" that they are destined for Paradise while any "worldlings" who reject them are destined for death. It's not so much that people in the world are not good enough for the JWs to mix with, although that is probably a small part of it, but mainly that non-JWs pose a danger to the spirituality of JWs and should, therefore, be avoided if at all possible.



I'll try to answer this as best I can. When out in "field service" JWs are expected to dress "appropriately" (as dictated by the group's leaders) which means that the men and boys (sometimes toddlers) wear suits and ties and the women and girls wear dresses (length below the knee, of course) and dress shoes.

There's no rule concerning dress (other than that it be modest) when JWs engage in the normal activities of daily life, so you probably wouldn't recognize them in any of those venues. However, occasionally JWs will go to a market or restaurant or some other public place right after a meeting or field service, so they would tend to stand out on those occasions. For instance, last Summer, my husband and I went to a local park where they have a walking path. A couple with two young children showed up dressed as you've described, and I realized (looking at the time) that they had just gotten out of the Sunday meeting at the Kingdom Hall that is not too far from that park.

While JWs are not required to wear anything special when engaging in day-to-day life, there was a talk by one of the Governing Body members not too long ago where he was railing against "skinny" pants for men (saying that they were created by homosexuals so that they could ogle the men wearing them) and stating in no uncertain terms that sisters should NOT wear Spandex (which he referred to as Spanx) if they engage in jogging or any other exercise regimen.

Hope that explains things for you.

I can think of a few other groups that would fit this description. Just replace JWs with their names and it sounds just as sensible as this. Thanks.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I've read a lot about Baha'i shunning. Is this the pot calling the kettle black? So many similarities. I'd sure hate to see a person get out of one cult, and step right into another.

Why am I not surprised to hear you accuse the Baha’i Faith of being a cult and hypocritical?

People are free to come and go from the Baha’i Faith. Associating with peoples of all Faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship is part of being a Baha’i. There are rare exceptions.

Speaking of black pots how about Hinduism? It is hardly free from religious prejudice and cult like behaviour.

Violence against Christians in India - Wikipedia

India recently hit the top 10 list regarding persecution of Christians.

India Cracks Top 10-Why the Country Has 'No Room' for Christians - Open Doors USA

Examples of true cult like behaviour within Hinduism are numerous. Hinduism can be a great religion and I’ve met many wonderful Hindus but I’ve seen a lot of religious prejudice from a small number of Hindus on this forum.

Although I have a few concerns about the JWs I haven’t called it a cult, nor will I.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Why am I not surprised to hear you accuse the Baha’i Faith of being a cult and hypocritical?

People are free to come and go from the Baha’i Faith. Associating with peoples of all Faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship is part of being a Baha’i. There are rare exceptions.

Speaking of black pots how about Hinduism? It is hardly free from religious prejudice and cult like behaviour.

Violence against Christians in India - Wikipedia

India recently hit the top 10 list regarding persecution of Christians.

India Cracks Top 10-Why the Country Has 'No Room' for Christians - Open Doors USA

Examples of true cult like behaviour within Hinduism are numerous.

Infallibilty? check
Shunning? check
Us versus them? check
We are the chosen ones? check
Excessive proselytizing? check

I would apply this to several Hindu sects as well, including ISKCON, and any others who think their particular version of Hinduism is the right one. But all one billion Hindus? Nah? Small sects do seem to have similar 'challenges'.

But yes, the main reason I come to RF is my anti-Bahai agenda.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll try to answer this as best I can. When out in "field service" JWs are expected to dress "appropriately" (as dictated by the group's leaders) which means that the men and boys (sometimes toddlers) wear suits and ties and the women and girls wear dresses (length below the knee, of course) and dress shoes.

There's no rule concerning dress (other than that it be modest) when JWs engage in the normal activities of daily life, so you probably wouldn't recognize them in any of those venues. However, occasionally JWs will go to a market or restaurant or some other public place right after a meeting or field service, so they would tend to stand out on those occasions. For instance, last Summer, my husband and I went to a local park where they have a walking path. A couple with two young children showed up dressed as you've described, and I realized (looking at the time) that they had just gotten out of the Sunday meeting at the Kingdom Hall that is not too far from that park.

While JWs are not required to wear anything special when engaging in day-to-day life, there was a talk by one of the Governing Body members not too long ago where he was railing against "skinny" pants for men (saying that they were created by homosexuals so that they could ogle the men wearing them) and stating in no uncertain terms that sisters should NOT wear Spandex (which he referred to as Spanx) if they engage in jogging or any other exercise regimen.

Hope that explains things for you.

Thank you very much for that. I guess that it had to be the case that Jehovah's Witnesses dress differently when no evangelizing.

There is most definitely a sense of superiority within the JW organization. After all, JWs "know" that they are "God's chosen people" and they "know" that they are destined for Paradise while any "worldlings" who reject them are destined for death.

Yeah, that comes through in @Deeje 's posting, but not in that of the other prolific Jehovah's Witnesses posting here on Religious Forums. They may hold those same views but not be expressing them here, but if so, there is no indication of that for me. Your contribution has been very helpful in deciding what's what. Your even manner and lack of anger or bitterness regarding the Jehovah's Witnesses makes your testimony more credible. Of course, here's the problem of small sample size. You are the only ex-Jehovah's Witness that I have read discussing her or his experience.

Good for you for breaking out. It is an extremely difficult journey. I left Christianity after a decade, and the messages running through my mind placed there by years of voluntary indoctrination don't stop for a very long time. I wasn't subjected to shunning. In fact my old friends and family welcomed me back. The shunning (sounds like a horror film from a few years back) must make it even more difficult.

I rank that transition as one of the most difficult things I have done, the others being quitting cigarettes and completing basic training in the Army. One might ask what about medical school, but that was a labor of love, and I always felt grateful to be there and to be offered a medical education.

Why can some people do that, but others seem to have lost the ability to tunnel out? Part of training oneself to be a good Christian involves learning to silence the cognitive dissonance, often identified with Satan trying to lure us away. We are instructed to do the equivalent of putting one's fingers in his ears and singing la-la-la-la-la in our own heads. Doubt is a failing, and keeping the faith at all costs in the face of contradictory evidence is a virtue. Critical thought is discouraged. After awhile, some may simply lose the ability to say to themselves, "Wait a minute, something's wrong here" - the first step if one is to tunnel out. For those that do hear such a voice, will he (or she) allow himself to entertain such notions and investigate them further, or just snuff the thought out as he has been instructed and likely has been doing for years.

non-JWs pose a danger to the spirituality of JWs and should, therefore, be avoided if at all possible.

That's a red flag on the list of signs of a cult, many of which teach separation from families, outside friends, and the world in general.. It's also antithetical to academic values, which welcomes alternate opinions. Look at this partial list from a link on the warning signs of cultic activity


• No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

• Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

• There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

• Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

• The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

So what is @Deeje doing rubbing shoulders with us here on the Internet? I suspect that considers herself immune to our effect, and I would agree with her. Nobody will be budging her from any religious position by any means. Perhaps she's like to field this question herself.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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My speaking out against the JW organization is not really for your benefit.

Often in these venues, we are not really writing to the person named in the post even though we seem to be, but as you imply, for the benefit of others and ourselves. This is a place to learn from those one considers competent to teach, to share one's own ideas with those who decide what is true about the world by applying reason to evidence, to practice constructing arguments, to practice identifying and naming logical fallacies, and to improve one's vocabulary and writing skills. One doesn't even need one's apparent collocutor to read the reply to accomplish any of that, much less be moved by one's reply.

I speak out so that others will know what the JW organization is like and, hopefully, avoid making the mistake of joining it.

Thanks for that. It's helpful to hear the opinions of both advocates and critics. I like to say, if you want to know what's right about Coke, ask Coke. If you want to know what's wrong with it, ask Pepsi. If the issue justifies making the effort, fact check the factual claims by each.

a religious publishing company posing as a religion

A very interesting take. Are you suggesting that the Jehovah's Witnesses' raison d'etre is to publish religious material? I would have said that it was to accumulate congregants and their donations judging by the intense recruiting effort visible, the literature just being a means to that end.

With other religions, I might add that accruing cultural clout to influence community norms through political and other means would be a purpose of the religion, such as with American evangelical Christianity, but I don't get that from the Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't think I've ever heard one commenting on abortion, and I doubt that they protest outside of Planned Parenthood clinics. I thank the Jehovah's Witnesses for that consideration, which is really my only problem with religion - when it becomes organized and politicized, and wants to dictate social policy even for unbelievers. I prefer a nice, polite denomination that understands that its values should be for volunteers only.

the majority of JWs still shun me as well as members of my family.

Sorry to read that. It's really a very ugly practice that is hurtful and suggests insecurity on the part of those promoting and doing the shunning.

"The division is entirely one sided. I didn't end relationships when I became an atheist. Christians ended those relationships, and it was because their particular religion cannot tolerate - I have letters from people who said 'We can no longer associate with you. You are of the devil." - Matt Dillahunty

Anyone who leaves the JW organization and speaks out against it in any way is labelled as an "apostate" and is considered to be, basically, a "dead man walking."

That's what I think when I see them on the street. They're all creationists, right? If so, they're probably mostly undereducated in areas like science and critical thinking, especially evaluating evidence. And then there's the locked in thing when faith extinguishes the last flicker of doubt.

Sorry if any of this offends you, Deeje. It's not my purpose. But don't forget that it is you who comes here to start a discussion on who has the truth, and I know that you think that it is you. I hope that you agree that others are entitled to rebut you openly. That's the purpose of the site.

Now this is definitely an outright lie. When I first became inactive and was no longer attending the Kingdom Hall, all of my former JW friends avoided me like the plague. I never spoke out against the organization, but it made no difference. If I wasn't an active JW, then I no longer existed as far as they were concerned.

This is the story we keep reading from ex-Jehovah's Winesses. @Deeje implies it doesn't happen. We see the same from ex-Mormons and practicing Mormons: "They shuned us" "We don't do that. That's just disgruntled people maligning us"

You must comply whether you are happy about it or not. If you do not comply, you will, at the very least, be counseled and considered to be spiritually weak or a bad association, or you will be disfellowshipped.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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Anyone who has been on the receiving end of an ex's fury will understand how distorted the stories can become, especially when justification needs support by exaggeration or a twisting of the truth.

If you mean an ex-Jehovah's Witness, I haven't seen that fury. @RedhorseWoman seems pretty composed and fair. and her testimony seems sincere and credible.

Like a marriage, if you don't take the vows, you were never married in the first place

Is that true in Australia? It's not true in my two countries of residence, former and present. All you need to be married is to be old enough, take a blood test, not be already married, and obtain a marriage license from the government. There need be no vows, nor do the vows have the legal status of a promise that can be viewed as a contract in the legal sense, the violation of which is not actionable. The vows, like a formal wedding ceremony, are just a nice tradition.

the churches, who are not clean either morally or spiritually, in my experience.

I think that you'll find more morality and spirituality outside of the church. I did. Of course, we probably disagree on what those things are.

No one was free to bring in foreign teachings from outside of what Christ taught.

Like the shunning and the aloof separateness, that's not something that helps the public's perception of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Perhaps you don't care how the religion is perceived, but isn't going door-to-door seeking converts a form of selling that requires that people not think ill of you?

Would it be fair of me to apply the same standards to the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock at my door - no foreign teachings permitted in our home that are outside our present beliefs? Aren't those people asking us to allow them to do just that?

We don't get to set our own rules, and there are penalties if we break the ones that God made.

Isn't that the central doctrine of Christianity - submit, obey, or feel the wrath of God? I used to think like that, but no longer. I bow to no man now. I mentioned elsewhere that one of the crowning achievements of cultural evolution in the West was the transformation of people as subjects commanded to submit to a king under threat of death into autonomous citizens with guaranteed personal freedoms. Forced kneeling before gods and kings was thrown out in favor of a new way of thinking in the eighteenth century. This is a typical sentiment from that era:

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -Diderot

If others do not accept Baha'u'llah as a prophet, then nothing he said will make a scrap of difference to anyone else but yourselves....he is not a genuine prophet to me....only to Baha'i's.

If you understand that, why do you quote biblical scripture to unbelievers and other non-Christians? We generally consider it the words of human beings speaking through the rhetorical device of a god, and thus without authority.

Where is Jesus' tomb?

I'm guessing that you consider its absence evidence that Jesus was never buried. That's possibly correct, but not evidence of resurrection if that is your implication. Do you agree? Many people who have lived and died have no tomb, but we don't consider them resurrected, right?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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I guess 'scripture' can become whatever you want it to be.

That's the most important thing to understand about scripture, which fact is the basis of most Christian apologetics. I recently questioned the wisdom of claiming that the meek are blessed, meekness being understood to mean a poverty of spirit and a failure to assert oneself even where he should, and I was told that meekness really means humility or gentility.

No. The principles in the Mueller investigation - Rosenstein and Mueller - are both humble and gentle people, but neither is meek. The meek are excessively submissive, unable to prevent others from imposing on them. You can't push either of those people around. Meek means meek, but apparently, as you noted, not if you don't it to.

Or, pick your preferred of two conflicting scriptures and emphasize that it is to be understood at face value, and either ignore the contradictory scripture, or if somebody brings it up, note that the words don't really mean what they seem to mean there, either.

Why do you suppose that the Jehovah's Witnesses have so many detractors? It is one of the few Christian denominations routinely criticized here on Religious Forums - perhaps the only one.

There's that submission - obedience mentality again. What choice does one have if he or she believes that ineluctable and severe punishment will surely follow noncompliance

But that's the price some pay for faith-based thought. If you're willing to believe the threat without sufficient evidence, then you can be controlled.

Why do you suppose that the Jehovah's Witnesses have so many detractors? It is one of the few Christian denominations routinely criticized here on Religious Forums - perhaps the only one.

Jesus prepared his disciples for the hatred that would be heaped upon them for no valid reason.

Did you know that there is another way to understand being rejected and disliked by great numbers of people apart from it indicating that you must be on the right track? Are you familiar with Martin Shkreli, the man who went to prison for business practices that included obscene profiteering of pharmaceuticals? He was said to be the most despised man on earth at one point. Should he have taken that as confirmation that he must be on the right track as well?

Why would we "love the world" that God says is "passing away"?

Really? For the same reason that you might love your mother if she is passing away.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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And in your world, everything is just rosy.....?

The answer depends what you mean by my world. Not everything in the world is rosy, but I am very happy with my life. That seems to be a sticking point with you. You seem to be angry that I can be happy in a world where some are far less fortunate. It would be ungrateful to express happiness when I've been given so much just by being born in the right place at the right time with so many advantages, and so much having been done before I was born to make life better for us all. I am grateful not to have been born in the Middle Ages, or in a forlorn place like Chad.

But you are wrong to think that I have no awareness of or compassion for the plight of others. On what basis do you assume that? Because its possible to be happy in this world despite its problems?

The criticisms about Jesus and his followers were relatively uniform in the first century as well....the Jews felt it gave credence to their criticisms too....nothing new, is there?

No.

The Jews criticized Jesus and the earliest Christians for the same reason you criticize Christian denominations other than the Jehovah's Witnesses - perceived heresy.

There are no excessive levels of control unless you are speaking about openly breaking the laws of God on issues of morality or drunkenness or in the way we represent our God in our everyday life.

Many others disagree, even at least one on this thread. I doubt that so many people make that claim if there were no substance to it, but I'm still open to ether possibility even though I lean with the critics.

Shunning is called 'excommunication' in any other religious setting and has been practiced for centuries as something recommended in scripture for those who willfully disobey the laws of God.

It is defined as...
  1. "A formal ecclesiastical censure that deprives a person of the right to belong to a church."

Shunning goes beyond excommunication. They are not synonymous or interchangeable.

This reminds me of the biblical slavery - indentured servitude discussions here on Religious Forums. If you condone something cruel, just redefine what it is that you actually do to something less objectionable.

When people are drawn to the Bible's message, they are already developing a distrust for the world as it is now.

That wasn't my experience. I was very much a part of the world with no more distrust of it after becoming a Christian than before. Why would I distrust the world more for being a Christian? Because someone suggested I do? I didn't take that suggestion from you, nor would I take it from anybody else. I would only have such an opinion if personal experience or the anecdotes of others suggested as much.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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As I said, if humans possessed the ability and the will to make the world a better place, they have the resources and the manpower to do so....but because of selfishness, and abuse of power, they have never achieved it....and never will.

You know that that claim is rejected here and just about everywhere else outside of a Kingdom Hall. I presume that other adherents to your faith think the same there.

I'm not disagreeing that some people and organizations are morally bankrupt and do net harm, just that that doesn't characterize all of life. I'm also saying that man has already found many ways to make this world a better place. As I just indicated, I am grateful to those that came before to create the world I was born into. Why would I distrust the world rather than selected entities that demonstrated untrustworthiness.

That is not to say that I trust the unknown, just that I don't distrust it either - not without a reason. I neither trust nor distrust you. You've given me no reason to do either.

Can you say the same?

Do we take pride in being no part of this world.....we certainly do, but not the way you think.....its because it means we have not sold out to its lures and the fantasy that happiness is the result of what money can buy.

That's pretty much how I think, and probably most everybody else.

I'd add more, though. You have disdain for most of the world. You said that your religious experience has made you distrustful of the world, not merely that it is unappealing or dissatisfying. And you think that your ways are not just the way that you choose to live, but the right way for everybody to live. If we have other goals or values, then you see it as an error.

This amused me to no end.....'our characteristic appearance is being dressed like the 19th century'?.....perhaps we did dress like that in the 19th century, but I assure you that is not the way we dress today. Perhaps living in Mexico has altered your perceptions?

Perhaps. I described what we see here. It's reminiscent of Mennonites, especially the women, who wear bonnets, long-sleeved, patternless blouses buttoned up to the neck, plain dresses that go down to the ankle, and sensible shoes for walking.

In Mexico our dress would be somewhat similar to what is worn by the general population.

I wouldn't be able to pick them out if that were the case. But perhaps the dress code is a little different in this part of Mexico since it is home to so many non-Mexican immigrants like my wife and me.

what do you think we are?

I'm not sure. That's why I've been asking. Who are these people? Where do they go when they're not evangelizing?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

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Immanuel means "With Us Is God" (Matthew 1:23) Jesus corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.” So it wasn't just the name but the meaning of the name of the one bearing it

Sorry, but I just alluded to this practice of changing the apparent meaning of words when it seems necessary. As with every other book, I take the words at face value. If it was meant that Immanuel should be understood as an epithet instead of a name, that should have been clearly stated.

Besides, Jesus doesn't meet the Old Testament criteria for the messiah in many other ways.

Perhaps you see the wrong kinds of improvement? In your bubble those things are probably important as you sip your wine overlooking your nice view in a country you have inhabited for 10 years without even bothering to learn the language.

LOL. You really dislike me, don't you? I don't see any kind of improvement as wrong, and certainly not the kinds of improvements I cited for you earlier, which you still can't say a single good word about.

My Spanish has been coming along since we got here, and I am able to communicate most ideas related to daily life. The barriers we encounter is that most Mexicans that we encounter and converse with are trying to learn English better - they get some in school, but not enough to be hired for jobs that serve a large population of English-only speakers - and so we help by speaking English to them. The fact is, though, that nobody needs to speak Spanish here to function, and so many don't have a incentive to learn, nor get the practice that immersion offers. Plus, there's all of the modern translation software that came in handy in a Guadalajaran hospital, where all physicians but less than half of the nurses spoke English.

But still, I want to be more fluent for two reasons. First, just out of respect for this country and its people, and secondly because becoming bilingual is one of only two items on my bucket list - perhaps the only one if you count an original 60 page syllabus on a particular contract bridge convention a book. It's sold less than a hundred copies, but it is only available in my bridge club, and mostly of interest to newer players..

You have your paradise, but you had to find it in someone else's country.....you didn't like your own so you moved.

That's correct. We chose to move out of America before we chose to move into Mexico. But now, we are so happy here that we would stay even if America resolved all of our objections to it and became an attractive place to live like it was when I was younger. Incidentally, we are waiting to hear from the Mexican government regarding our citizenship applications, which are completed and pending consideration. We had to pass a language test, but it was basic, such as what was it that we like about Mexico - simple answers, basic grammar and vocabulary. "We like the people, culture, beauty, climate, and food" is pretty easy in Spanish. Two of the words look like their English counter[[arts - cultura y clima.

Democracies are a myth actually. Did you get to watch the video I posted...? Old but interesting....

Thanks, but I rarely look at the videos on Religious Forums unless they are offered as evidentiary support for a claim or argument a poster has presented.

Democracy is a complex topic now, and can mean different things to different people. How often are we told that a constitutional republic is not a democracy. The pretense of democracy even with rigged elections and a Congress indifferent to so much of what its constituents want is still better than what the West had before the Enlightenment, which was authroitarian monarchy.

All you see is the good

That's not true, but the opposite is true for you. As I said, I rattled off a list of about a dozen major improvements in the human condition, and you couldn't find a single good word to say about any of it.
 
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