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Who here believes in "Scientism"?

cladking

Well-Known Member
We have the ability to discern between ideas that correctly anticipate outcomes and those that don't, and to accumulate only the former.

No we don't.

There are no nostradami. Nobody can really predict anything of note because everything is far too complex and almost all events in the future are determined by things that haven't happened yet. We roll the dice and take our chances. Reason and science allow us to play with loaded dice but even the most dishonest dice still allow us to crap out from time to time.

We use reductionistic science to learn about reality and then mistake the reductions for reality itself. We think we know far more than we do. And then we all from creationists to cosmologists pat ourselves on the back for being so omniscient.

You can't live your life in accordance with a little car rolling down an inclined plane any more than in accordance with single Bible passage. Reality is more complex.

I'm not sure what you mean, but empiricism is the only path to knowledge about how the world works.

This is false if you are defining "empiricism" as "the interpretation of evidence". We can only interpret evidence in terms of our beliefs. This is why science is wrong all the time and is continually undergoing paradigm shifts. We must analyze evidence but those who believe there is one interpretation and one conclusion are practicing scientism not science.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nobody can really predict anything of note
I can. Science can.
This is false if you are defining "empiricism" as "the interpretation of evidence".
I do define empiricism as the interpretation of evidence according to the rules of reason, but my statement "empiricism is the only path to knowledge about how the world works" is not false. If it were, you could falsify it. You didn't even try.
science is wrong all the time
No, it's not. Infact, it's rarely wrong. Yes, some papers are rescinded, some tests fail, and some theories are expanded, but science has proven itself reliable.

Maybe you've not seen this yet:

"You stare into your high definition plasma screen monitor, type into your cordless keyboard then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits.

"This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router where it is then converted to light waves and sent along a large fiber optics cable to be processed by a supercomputer on a mass server.

"This sends that bit you typed to a satellite orbiting the earth that was put there through the greatest feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar pathway to make it all the way here to my computer monitor 15,000 miles away from you just so you could say, "Science is all a bunch of manmade hogwash.
"- anon.
We must analyze evidence but those who believe there is one interpretation and one conclusion are practicing scientism not science.
That's a new definition of scientism for me. Scientism is the complaint that people of faith (and not just religious faith) make when empiricists reject their claims and fallacious arguments. Even though it's voiced that way, the complaint is not about too much empiricism, but rather, not enough faith. As I've said, one cannot have too much reliance on experience properly understood. I'd add that one cannot have too little belief by faith, which is implied by the first comment, since all beliefs are either justified or unjustified (complementary aka MECE sets), all beliefs being one or the other but none being both or neither.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That's a new definition of scientism for me. Scientism is the complaint that people of faith (and not just religious faith) make when empiricists reject their claims and fallacious arguments.

I don't know.

Perhaps they are objecting not to science or experiment but to fallacious arguments disguised as science.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I can. Science can.

No, you can't.

If you think you can why don't you try and why aren't you buying stocks that will triple tomorrow. Have any inside information?

I do define empiricism as the interpretation of evidence according to the rules of reason,

So if you grew up in the middle ages you'd know mice arise from dirty laundry and the earth was flat.

When I was young there was no plate tectonics and everyone could see the land was terra firma.

The reality is our beliefs are simply irrelevant to reality. Plates are bending and twisting under the pyramids and always have. Reality is change and you can't step into the same river twice. You can believe anything you choose and reality doesn't even twitch but when I stamp my feet the whole universe shudders.

All reality, all experiment, all theory applies at all times.

This obviously and patently true as well and is the only reasonable explanation for all empirical evidence and all experiment.

If it were, you could falsify it. You didn't even try.

It is patently and obviously wrong.

No, it's not. Infact, it's rarely wrong. Yes, some papers are rescinded, some tests fail, and some theories are expanded, but science has proven itself reliable.

Paradigms are continually being rewritten. Science changes one funeral at a time not because it's is relieved at the death of some dogmatic priest but because it needed to change to fit new evidence and dogma causes everyone to drag his feet.

Again this is obviously true. Or perhaps you think all the wise men who ever lived were fools because they aren't up to date on the multiverse "theory". Do you find no truth outside of evidence? I thought I was bad about needing evidence for everything but then I don't think St Thomas Aquinas was a jerk. Nor was he evil or deluded. Maybe that a lack of modern scientific "knowledge" is what made it possible for him not to be taken in so many assumptions and the soft sciences which sprang from them.

When I use the term "scientism" I am referring to a "believer in science". If you parse it to mean I'm a creationist then that is just one of your errors. The main error is that YOU will have caused the breakdown in communication. You are supposed to respond to what I mean not to what YOU believe.

By your definition of "scientism" only some scientists are practicing scientism. Hey, it's the same by my definition but the group is a little different.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I can. Science can.
Me too. I think most people realize they can. What I see as puzzling and amusing are the contradictory claims of using models to make predictions followed by claims that it can't be done. Both from the same person. It doesn't make any sense. It seems as if a new term needs to be coined for what is often posted on here. Pseudoscientism.
I do define empiricism as the interpretation of evidence according to the rules of reason, but my statement "empiricism is the only path to knowledge about how the world works" is not false. If it were, you could falsify it. You didn't even try.
From the context, the alternative definition of empiricism seems to be "random guessing".
No, it's not. Infact, it's rarely wrong. Yes, some papers are rescinded, some tests fail, and some theories are expanded, but science has proven itself reliable.
I agree.
Maybe you've not seen this yet:

"You stare into your high definition plasma screen monitor, type into your cordless keyboard then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits.

"This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router where it is then converted to light waves and sent along a large fiber optics cable to be processed by a supercomputer on a mass server.

"This sends that bit you typed to a satellite orbiting the earth that was put there through the greatest feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar pathway to make it all the way here to my computer monitor 15,000 miles away from you just so you could say, "Science is all a bunch of manmade hogwash.
"- anon.
That's very good and it expresses what I think is offered by some as a world view. They use the products of science while claiming it is the worst thing that ever happened to mankind. It's patently ridiculous.
That's a new definition of scientism for me. Scientism is the complaint that people of faith (and not just religious faith) make when empiricists reject their claims and fallacious arguments. Even though it's voiced that way, the complaint is not about too much empiricism, but rather, not enough faith. As I've said, one cannot have too much reliance on experience properly understood. I'd add that one cannot have too little belief by faith, which is implied by the first comment, since all beliefs are either justified or unjustified (complementary aka MECE sets), all beliefs being one or the other but none being both or neither.
I think that is exactly correct and the very kind of belief-based thinking you are responding to.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Worlds combine on RF. People with little to no exposure to academic culture encounter those experienced at critical thinking and who have absorbed the university demeanor. So, maybe one hasn't been down that road but finds himself on RF in discussion with others who have. How do he handle that? He makes a faith-based claim and is met with a rebuttal, to which he is expected to offer counterargument if he disagrees, but he doesn't know about these rules, and so he handles it as he always has, using any manner of persuasion that he thinks will be effective.

If this is an evolution-creationism discussion, he'll handle it like the preacher would. He'll just disregard what he just heard or read, gird his loin with faith, perhaps utter a silent "get thee behind me, Satan," and repeat himself with more conviction. TV preachers and apologetics web site theologians make good models for this as well. Stubborn, often emotional insistence is presented as a virtue. This is also antithetical to academic culture.
I agree that many that attack science that makes them uncomfortable only have the pulpit, emotional model to respond with, but there are also some rather fantastic claims being made without evidence. Often their is contradiction and inconsistency that makes no sense. This goes beyond the normal creationist approach. Posts that claim you can't use science or make predictions followed by posts talking about "true" science and using models to predict. Still others that propose fictional taxonomies declared as valid, often for nonsensical reasons with concomitant claims of rejection of taxonomy or claims of speciation without evidence and following some simplified, totally incorrect mechanism. I think calling such baseless, fantastic and inaccurate claims pseudoscientism is fairly apt. Pseudoscience isn't falsifiable, so believing in it is best described as pseudoscientism I think.
Where do you encounter such people in such numbers that you see this as a problem worth commenting on repeatedly on a thread with nobody making those claims?
I see it as a straw man, the sky is falling rhetoric. Reminds me of that fish that slipped from my hands.
If you mean believing them, I wonder why not. My goal is to hold only correct beliefs, that is, those that accurately predict outcomes. I want no false beliefs, and no unfalsifiable (neither correct nor incorrect) beliefs.
Even as a theist, my personal view fits this more than it doesn't. From the perspective of science, I don't interject my personal beliefs as answers to address questions about the physical world.

I just can't imagine how so many contradictory views can exist while seeming to shift with the flavor of what is being responded rather than to follow any sort of logical pattern of response or using any evidence. I still see projection as a sound explanation for this sort of activity.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, you can't. If you think you can why don't you try and why aren't you buying stocks that will triple tomorrow.
You wrote, "Nobody can really predict anything of note" and I said that I can. I didn't say that I can predict anything.
The reality is our beliefs are simply irrelevant to reality.
I don't know what that means. Are you saying that reality doesn't care what we believe? Or maybe you are saying that reality doesn't change according to our beliefs. My beliefs are integral to my reality - how I understand it and the choices I make navigating it.
It is patently and obviously wrong.
If it were obviously wrong, it would be because the falsification was apparent. That's what obvious means - readily apparent to the senses. I don't see it.
When I use the term "scientism" I am referring to a "believer in science". If you parse it to mean I'm a creationist then that is just one of your errors.
No, I don't consider you a creationist, but you have an anti-science quality in common because science contradicts or fails to embrace your ideas, and so you labor to identify its shortcomings, but it has none other than that it is incomplete. I've explained that when I read, "you rely on science too much" I translate it into "you won't believe by faith but should."
By your definition of "scientism" only some scientists are practicing scientism.
By my understanding of scientism as others complaining about strict empiricism use it, nobody fits the definition
From the context, the alternative definition of empiricism seems to be "random guessing".
The way I word it is that one's beliefs are all either justified - meaning empirically and according to academic rules of interpreting evidence - or not. The latter category, if believed, are believed by faith, which yes, is guessing.
Even as a theist, my personal view fits this more than it doesn't. From the perspective of science, I don't interject my personal beliefs as answers to address questions about the physical world.
Yes, which why I use the name theistic humanist to describe somebody with a god belief whose values and other opinions are otherwise indistinguishable from my own.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I don't know what that means. Are you saying that reality doesn't care what we believe?

Yes.

Are you saying that reality doesn't care what we believe?

Yes.

Or maybe you are saying that reality doesn't change according to our beliefs.

Yes.

My beliefs are integral to my reality - how I understand it and the choices I make navigating it.

Absolutely yes.

We each experience a unique reality based upon our beliefs because in homo omnisciencis our actions and perception are predicated on our beliefs. We are each aware of this simple fact in varying degrees but those who believe in scientism much less so. They have simply adopted beliefs that can never be questioned. They are usually blind to anomalies. They want to believe. Their beliefs blinds them to the one reality we're all supposed to be seeking.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No, I don't consider you a creationist, but you have an anti-science quality in common because science contradicts or fails to embrace your ideas, and so you labor to identify its shortcomings, but it has none other than that it is incomplete.

I an not anti science. I am anti scientism.

I am not not a creationist either.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
You wrote, "Nobody can really predict anything of note" and I said that I can. I didn't say that I can predict anything.

I don't know what that means. Are you saying that reality doesn't care what we believe? Or maybe you are saying that reality doesn't change according to our beliefs. My beliefs are integral to my reality - how I understand it and the choices I make navigating it.

If it were obviously wrong, it would be because the falsification was apparent. That's what obvious means - readily apparent to the senses. I don't see it.

No, I don't consider you a creationist, but you have an anti-science quality in common because science contradicts or fails to embrace your ideas, and so you labor to identify its shortcomings, but it has none other than that it is incomplete. I've explained that when I read, "you rely on science too much" I translate it into "you won't believe by faith but should."

By my understanding of scientism as others complaining about strict empiricism use it, nobody fits the definition

The way I word it is that one's beliefs are all either justified - meaning empirically and according to academic rules of interpreting evidence - or not. The latter category, if believed, are believed by faith, which yes, is guessing.

Yes, which why I use the name theistic humanist to describe somebody with a god belief whose values and other opinions are otherwise indistinguishable from my own.
I enjoy reading the responses you get. Not so much for what gets responded to, but what doesn't. The responses are often highly selective and omit responding to some rather important points.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
in homo omnisciencis our actions and perception are predicated on our beliefs
That's true for a large number of species. My dogs' actions indicate what they believe. When they hear their bowls being moved, they believe it's mealtime, and their behavior reveals that. They become animated. They stand up, wag, and come to the kitchen smiling (happy). They clearly have a belief and are acting on it.
I an not anti science. I am anti scientism.
You have criticisms of science not found within the scientific and critical thinking communities.
I am not a creationist
I have never thought you were. You've not mentioned a god belief to my knowledge. But you also have beliefs that you can't support. That's the definition of a faith-based belief, just not necessarily religious faith. The anti-vaxxers, also not (necessarily) creationists, are another bunch very critical of the scientific community, both the pre-Covid variety afraid of autism from children's vaccines and the anti-Fauci set during the pandemic, who insisted against the evidence that the vaccines were more dangerous than the coronavirus. All of these groups are anti-science, and all deny it, saying that they respect good science, by which they mean the science that doesn't contradict their faith-based belief. The moon landing hoax criers would be another such group.

And the flat earthers would be another such group of anti-science, faith-based thinkers. Presumably, you agree that the earth is roughly spherical, not flat. Imagine yourself in discussion with a flat-earther. You offer counterarguments, such as photos of a spherical earth or evidence that it can be night in one part of the world while it is daytime elsewhere, but he tells you that's just you not thinking outside the box. Then he calls you a scientismist, saying that you trust the earth scientists too much, and explaining that you need to open up your mind a little.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I have never thought you were.

What I actually said was "I am not not a creationist either.". Not only do I not belong in the group of people who are creationists but I also don't belong in the group who are not creationists. This is one of the many problems with modern language: Nothing is a clear fit in any category or taxonomy. This goes many times over in this instance.

The problem with most believers in science and many scientists is they still have the 19th century notion of a clockwork universe and clockwork reality. On some level (often every level) they believe reality was set in motion in the past (such as a big bang) and all things derive from it; all things are predictable with sufficient evidence and data. This is poppycock and nonsense. The future is always determined by things that have yet to happen.

Certainly we can see what has already happened but none of it was preordained and just because we think we know why something happens doesn't mean we are right. What has happened is the biggest source of data for pattern recognition which is (a large part of) consciousness but all such patterns are tentative and will be overwritten by either observation and experiment in homo omnisciencis or by observation and logic in all other species.

There is no clockwork reality. We believe there is because we see a fox run down a rabbit and simply assume the rabbit was insufficiently fit. Everywhere we look we think we see answers and the final word but there is no final word.

Presumably, you agree that the earth is roughly spherical, not flat

Not really. Language and science are such that you can define a sphere as being flat. It simply makes no sense to do so since it complicates the math to place things in orbit or calculate the shortest line between two points on the surface.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
My dogs' actions indicate what they believe.

No! You are simply ascribing human characteristics to animals. A pavlovian reaction to preparing a meal for an animal simply means the animal knows it's meal time. It probably had other clues as well since humans are creatures of habit much more than other species. Curiously one of the chief reasons we are creatures of habit is superstition; something worked for us before so we expect it to work again.

Animals have no beliefs or superstitions. I lived with a dog for many years and if you twist my arm I might agree that if any animal can have a belief, superstition, or understand an abstraction it would be a dog. Some behavior seems superstitious and they seem to pick up on some abstraction such as pointing.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You have criticisms of science not found within the scientific and critical thinking communities.

I don't think this is strictly true.

I'm the very first individual on the planet to "understand" two different metaphysics or at least know they exist and this does give me a unique perspective. However, I doubt I've ever said anything some scientist or philosopher hasn't already said.

Science is reductionistic in nature and is a product of experiment having no meaning outside its definitions and axioms. Only humans (homo omnisciencis) practice modern science and all humans are a product of their beliefs/ models. This is all old news to many metaphysicians and philosophers . What I've added is that thought arises from the comparison of the senses to our beliefs and that other animals and ancient people never think or thought.

Modern humans are the odd man out in nature.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What I actually said was "I am not not not a creationist either."
What you wrote was, "I am not a creationist."
Not only do I not belong in the group of people who are creationists but I also don't belong in the group who are not creationists
My definition of a creationist is anybody who believes that our universe was intelligently designed and created by a sentient agent with a purpose in mind. The complement is everybody else. By that definition, everybody is either a creationist or not, and nobody is both or neither.
The problem with most believers in science and many scientists is they still have the 19th century notion of a clockwork universe and clockwork reality. On some level (often every level) they believe reality was set in motion in the past (such as a big bang) and all things derive from it; all things are predictable with sufficient evidence and data.
That's not my understanding of what a clockwork universe is. It's one that runs itself without intelligent oversight. It's one where the sun doesn't need Apollo to drag it through the sky and where electrons travel through a circuit with nobody pushing them. Remember, the first wave of scientists (Renaissance to mid 19th century) demonstrated that the universe ran itself day to day on autopilot. This was followed by a second wave of scientists who showed us how the universe could assemble itself without intelligent oversight. Thus, the builder-ruler god became the builder god, then the builder god was dismissed. This is nicely documented by the rise of deism in the late 19th century as with American founding fathers, and then its relative disappearance and the rise of atheism following Darwin and the 20th century cosmologists and particle physicists.
Not really. Language is such that you can define a sphere as being flat.
That's a circle (2D). A sphere is a 3D object.
No! You are simply ascribing human characteristics to animals. A pavlovian reaction to preparing a meal for an animal simply means the animal knows it's meal time.
What I wrote was, "My dogs' actions indicate what they believe." You wrote "No!" but didn't otherwise contradict me. In fact, you agreed. What the "animal knows" is its belief. And I disagree that this is an example of pavlovian (classical) conditioning, which doesn't require any understanding of the consequences of the stimulus. The dogs know what to expect, which is why they are not merely salivating, but dancing around in anticipation as their bowls are being prepared.
Animals have no beliefs
Their beliefs aren't in words, but they are beliefs nevertheless.
I don't think this is strictly true. I'm the very first individual on the planet to "understand" two different metaphysics or at least know they exist and this does give me a unique perspective. However, I doubt I've ever said anything some scientist or philosopher hasn't already said.
I wrote, "You have criticisms of science not found within the scientific and critical thinking communities." First, you disagree, then offer an example of an original idea and a unique perspective. Then you deny its originality.
What I've added is that thought arises from the comparison of the senses to our beliefs
Why do you consider that original? We have an apprehension (evidence, or that which is evident to the senses), and this is quickly fleshed out with an understanding of what the apprehension signifies (thing in driveway, car in driveway, Bob's car in driveway, Bob's here, I owe Bob money I don't have) followed by how we feel about it (uh-oh). These are the cognitive and affective tags added to the apprehension. You've described the cognitive one - a tour through memory looking for relevant prior associations.
and that other animals and ancient people never think.
You must be using a different definition of think than I do. All intelligent life thinks. We can see that birds and mammals do. We can watch them solve problems. It gets harder as we go back to fish through reptiles and amphibians, which seem to be conscious, but not problem-solvers.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
The anti-vaxxers, also not (necessarily) creationists, are another bunch very critical of the scientific community, both the pre-Covid variety afraid of autism from children's vaccines and the anti-Fauci set during the pandemic, who insisted against the evidence that the vaccines were more dangerous than the coronavirus.

Pfizer had a vaccine for covid in 1990 and like every subsequent vaccine they knew it didn't work. Covid was no pandemic. In real pandemics billions would die. The vaccine had little or no effect. Corona virus was weaponized to attack people after being patented 20 years ago. It was an attempt to take over by big business and it was largely successful.

But this is off topic isn't it?

People simply believe what they want to believe and after three generations of failed schools it gets easier and easier and easier to make us believe anything that is labeled as "science". The real damage lies in the future. Extinction looms because the twits causing this believe they don't need farting cow eaters or fly over country. They think they can keep a few around for slaves and live the life of riley.

What you wrote was, "I am not a creationist."

No!!! LOOK AGAIN! I said I am not not a creationist and what you believe about creationism is irrelevant to every single creationists and every single not a creationist. We can each define terms for what we say (metaphysics is the basis of science) but we can not impose our definitions on other people and most assuredly not on reality itself.

You couldn't be more mistaken.

What I wrote was, "My dogs' actions indicate what they believe." You wrote "No!" but didn't otherwise contradict me.

DOGS have no beliefs. You are ascribing human characteristics to another species just as surely as Egyptologists are ascribing human characteristics to the pyramid builders. All actions by all other species than homo omniscience are driven by what they know in conjunction with their wiring. They understand no abstractions and do not experience thought. This is not to say they don't "think" but without understanding how you yourself think and the nature of consciousness you can't even begin to understand what it means to a dog to "think". It's simpler to just think they don't think at all and in most very real ways they do not.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It's one that runs itself without intelligent oversight.

Reality doesn't so much "run" as it is a series of events. None of these events can be predicted and even though "every" event takes place in an instant of time there is no time so short that no event is occurring. Cause precedes effect. There are no laws of nature but rather it is a manifestation of logic in particles and forces in time. We see "laws" only because we apply quantified logic successfully to processes in nature. We think that if we have two apples and obtain two more apples that we have four apples but the reality is there is no such thing as any "number" other than "zero" and "one".

Knowing why reality works is above my paygrade and this certainly applies to how it began as well.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That's a circle (2D). A sphere is a 3D object.

I didn't suggest a flat earth has to be two dimensional. It would probably be impossible to describe earth as a two dimensional object and then compute orbit. This would go many times over if there are no ends to the earth. Too many equations would break down. No doubt you can compute orbits using two dimensions but not if the earth were two dimensions as well.

Everything is how we define it. However definitions are always flexible as are axioms. This is why science has no meaning outside of its metaphysics. Not even experiment is truly sacrosanct because it exists within its context.

This was followed by a second wave of scientists who showed us how the universe could assemble itself without intelligent oversight.

Obviously the universe and life could have arisen naturally. But until such time as we know how they arose all we can do is speculate. There are good arguments on both sides but I'm not so sure there aren't in reality even more sides. But everyone seems to already have the answer or know who to call to get it; homo omnisciencis.

I wrote, "You have criticisms of science not found within the scientific and critical thinking communities." First, you disagree, then offer an example of an original idea and a unique perspective.

A unique perspective is not a disagreement.

Original ideas don't mean I necessarily disagree with anyone.

Yes, I am not your average scientist or metaphysician. But as the Bible suggests there is nothing new under the sun. If it's true I have two metaphysics then I am most probably first. Unlike everyone else I MIGHT be wrong. Perhaps modern science has no false assumptions and have worked forward only from experiment. I would point to the double slit experiment and the failure to develop a unified field theory as prima facie evidence that I am right and science needs some tweaking. I may know how to begin this process but it will require a great deal of effort and time to accomplish.

Why do you consider that original? We have an apprehension (evidence, or that which is evident to the senses), and this is quickly fleshed out with an understanding of what the apprehension signifies (thing in driveway, car in driveway, Bob's car in driveway, Bob's here, I owe Bob money I don't have) followed by how we feel about it (uh-oh). These are the cognitive and affective tags added to the apprehension. You've described the cognitive one - a tour through memory looking for relevant prior associations.

This is way too abstract. I seriously doubt it can be quantified or even recognized by every individual. No matter how true it is or is not, it might not be of any particular value. You are simply describing a chain of thought and I don't dispute homo omnisciencis thinks in one dimension. I am merely adding that your dog thinks in "four" dimensions
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I am merely adding that your dog thinks in "four" dimensions

It is this ability to think in multiple dimensions that give other species the ability to thrive. Reptiles don't even experience thought or sight yet can scurry away from virtually any threat and always find a meal. No creature could survive without consciousness and it is this that confers the ability to survive because all individuals are equally fit.

Not only do we each think in one dimension but if you accept the beliefs laid down by bought and paid for "science" or charlatans less interested in your almighty soul than your almighty money then that one dimension is like a road to perdition from which you can't break free.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No!!! LOOK AGAIN! I said I am not not a creationist
You also said the opposite. I just quoted your words: "I am not a creationist."
DOGS have no beliefs.
Yes, they do.
Reptiles don't even experience thought or sight
They certainly experience sight. We'd need to define thought more to decide if we want to call how a lizard, for example, processes information thinking. I doubt they contemplate much, but if you've seen one hunting insects, they appear to have plan. A Venus fly-trap doesn't think. I doubt an earthworm is conscious. Somewhere in the animal kingdom, consciousness and then intelligence evolved. It may be a gradient rather than an on-off, yes-no phenomenon.
A unique perspective is not a disagreement.
What's a disagreement if not a different opinion?
This is way too abstract.
It's simple and self-evident. Apprehension -> cognitive significance: what does the apprehension say about reality -> affective significance: how one feels about that. This is often followed by some action or behavior. The lizard does this. Movement -> Insect -> Dinner time! -> tongue extended.
Not only do we each think in one dimension but if you accept the beliefs laid down by bought and paid for "science" or charlatans less interested in your almighty soul than your almighty money then that one dimension is like a road to perdition from which you can't break free.
This is another of your vague warnings. Somebody's doing something wrong somewhere and it's going to lead to trouble. What's missing are specific examples of this error, what makes them an error, what resulted because of the error, and how to do better. It would be like me saying that people are failing to look ahead and it's going to cost them.

What are you going to do with that? Nothing. You can't agree or disagree except to agree that people can be short-sighted and make mistakes. It's just not a meaningful warning. How about I add an concrete example? I think Americans are being pretty slow to recognize that many of them live in areas that are becoming increasingly less habitable due to heat, drought, fire, tornado, hurricane, etc., and eventually, their property will become uninsurable and unsellable for more than peanuts, so, they need to recognize that, find a better location, and sell now before other people start to figure this out and you have no market for your home.

That's a warning you can use. It identifies a specific problem, explains why it's a problem, and offers a solution. I see people on the evening news routinely now who have lost everything to wind or fire, many uninsured or underinsured, that talk about picking up the pieces and rebuilding. That made sense fifty years ago, when extreme weather was rarer and patterns more stable and predictable. Hundred-year floods happened every hundred years and tornadoes came to an area a century apart. But climate and weather patterns are changing, and the past is no longer a reliable guide to the future. You rebuild at your own peril. I saw a man from Northern California on the news in 2021 whose house had just burned down, the one he rebuilt following the 2018 fire that burned his previous home. I wonder what he did after that?
 
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