Who here believes Lucifer and Satan are the same?

[1137]

This seems to be a common point of ignorance that would be great of we could clear up. Many seem to think Lucifer and Satan are the same entity, Lucifer was Satan's master or something along those lines, Lucifer became Satan, Lucifer is an archdemon, etc. It simply is not true, but I am wondering who here accepts the misunderstanding? From what I can tell it comes from the King of Babylon being called Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12, sometime near the 3rd century. It is silly to me that people accept the relationship when the bible says nowhere that Satan is or was Lucifer. In fact, Lucifer was the name of Venus, the morning star, and Christ calls himself such in Revelations.

Basic links already provided:
Lucifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Use of the name "Lucifer" for the Devil stems from applying to the Devil what Isaiah 14:3–20 says of a king of Babylon whom it calls Helel (לֵליֵה, Shining One), a Hebrew word that refers to the Day Star or Morning Star (the Latin term [2] for which is lucifer) [3] This association developed in Early Christianity, in the 2nd or 3rd century.


In 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere, the same Latin word lucifer is used to refer to the Morning Star, with no relation to the Devil. In Revelation 22:16 , Jesus himself is called the Morning Star but not "Lucifer", even in Latin (Vulgata stella splendida matutina).

It is uncertain when precisely the Isaiah passage, which in its Latin translation contains the name "Lucifer", began to be applied to Satan, but it was certainly used in this way by 3rd-century Origen, [4] and some scholars claim that the identification of "Lucifer" with the Devil was first made by Origen, Tertullian and Augustine of Hippo. [5]


Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

 

[Riverwolf]

The Accuser's name has always been that. In the Bible, his name was never Lucifer.

However, accurate or not, contemporary Christian mythology considers one of the Accuser's names as Lucifer, along with various names of Babylonian Gods (Baal, Beelzebub, etc.)

 

[F0uad]

Yeah the name ''Lucifer'' has been removed in the most translations since its not in the original Greek scripture it was the James king Version who put that name into the text.

So there is no Lucifer in the Bible.

 

[Breathe]

I don't.
I don't believe in those entities, either, but if I did, still no.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

One's a man, one's an angel. No connection.

 

[StashLazarus]

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

“Day star” is translated as “Lucifer” in the KJV, and because of this the devil received a new name. The passage is clearly talking about the king of Babylon, but that doesn’t mean it cannot also be talking about the devil. Even Led Zeppelin pointed out that words can have two meanings. As far as both Satan and Christ being called the morning star, look at the next verse.

Isaiah 14:13 And thou saidst in thy heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, above the stars of God will I exalt my throne, and I will sit upon the mount of meeting, in the uttermost parts of the north;

The person described in this text seems to believe they are the Morning Star. Calling the devil the "Morning Star" or “Day Star” could be a way of mocking the devil for his belief that he would be the Day Star when that role will actually be filled by somebody else.

 

[ChristineES]

No, they are not the same at all.

 

[bobhikes]

I always thought Lucifer was his name and satan the nickname. You know Like Jesus and Christ. Jesus is the name chirst is who he was.

God has a lot of names too.

I guess its only a problem if you believe names have some power. Personally I don't I go by many names too.

 

[Quintessence]

I voted yes on a technicality with how the poll was worded. The poll should probably not have ben either "same" or "related" because this is not the same question.

Do I personally feel they are the same? No.

Are they related? Absolutely! I recognize, for one, that under some ways of thinking Lucifer is used as a synonym for Satan. I also recognize that both terms relate to Abrahamic demonology and have a common mythological root. I recognize that both are used in contemporary occult practices in ways that sometimes relate very little to how they are understood in the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Super Universe]

When a high level angel is placed into a position of leadership over other high level angels they are called a "Star", higher leadership positions are called "Morning Star", and even higher positions are "Bright Morning Star". It's an honorary title denoting the position, like calling someone a "Commanding Officer", it is a title, not their name.

Lucifer was a "Bright Morning Star", in a high position over this area of the universe. Satan was on the earth as an assistant to Lucifer. The devil and Beelzebub were on the earth, both assistants. These earth bound angels were visible to humans and interacted with them.

Once Christ finished His earthly bestowal He then assumed leadership over all. One of His decisions was to enact a policy of non-interference. The angels had to leave the earth.

Once Moses gave his people the idea of a single God, and maybe just a few angels, humans began to think that this one God should be all about them since they thought that the rest of the universe was empty. They thought there could not be Lucifer, Satan, the devil, and Beelzebub, so they combined them all into one being.

 

[1137]

When a high level angel is placed into a position of leadership over other high level angels they are called a "Star", higher leadership positions are called "Morning Star", and even higher positions are "Bright Morning Star". It's an honorary title denoting the position, like calling someone a "Commanding Officer", it is a title, not their name.

Lucifer was a "Bright Morning Star", in a high position over this area of the universe. Satan was on the earth as an assistant to Lucifer. The devil and Beelzebub were on the earth, both assistants. These earth bound angels were visible to humans and interacted with them.

Once Christ finished His earthly bestowal He then assumed leadership over all. One of His decisions was to enact a policy of non-interference. The angels had to leave the earth.

Once Moses gave his people the idea of a single God, and maybe just a few angels, humans began to think that this one God should be all about them since they thought that the rest of the universe was empty. They thought there could not be Lucifer, Satan, the devil, and Beelzebub, so they combined them all into one being.

First, Moses was much before Christ. Second, do you have scripture supporting this?

 

[Super Universe]

First, Moses was much before Christ. Second, do you have scripture supporting this?

Do I have scripture supporting this? Yes, scripture itself. It's all there you just have to figure it out. Study people, realize that most of what they do is for their own benefit, realize that ancient people were ignorant about science and the universe.

Or you could read the Urantia Book section that details the Lucifer Rebellion.

 

[1137]

Nowhere does scripture say Lucifer was an angel, or even a title for one. Lucifer is never the name of the adversary either. And, although Jesus calls himslef the morning star, he doesn't actually call himself Lucifer

I hate when people tell me to read / study scripture when they apparently haven't themselves.

 

[Caladan]

It would good if anyone pin point the theological and historical stage in which Lucifer became identified with the devil before the 3rd century.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

No, I don't believe they're the same characters.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I voted no.

But I have been wondering: If Lucifer isn't Satan, how is Satan a fallen angel? If Satan isn't, how about that part in the Bible where he got kicked out of Heaven?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Isaiah 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. [after the end of the world when there is no satan]

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
[trees can talk .. ]

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee [satan] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou [satan] also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[satan will be covered with worms]

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

[1137]

Those Isaiah verses are talking about the King of Babylon, not Satan. If you read it closely you cannot even logically associate it with Satan. This happened long aftet the fall of man where the King enslaved people and tried to ascend to heaven.

 

[1137]

Jews do not believe in the devil, so he is not part of our mythologies.

 

[Caladan]

I voted no.

But I have been wondering: If Lucifer isn't Satan, how is Satan a fallen angel? If Satan isn't, how about that part in the Bible where he got kicked out of Heaven?

The question is which Bible. In the original scriptures mandated by the scribes at the Temple of Jerusalem there is no book of Revelation.
Revelation is closing the New Testament and was written in a later historical stage by a different group of Jews. It was never included into the mainstrean Jewish thought or the mainstream Hebrew canon.

 

[StashLazarus]

I voted no.

But I have been wondering: If Lucifer isn't Satan, how is Satan a fallen angel? If Satan isn't, how about that part in the Bible where he got kicked out of Heaven?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Isaiah 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. [after the end of the world when there is no satan]

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
[trees can talk .. ]

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee [satan] to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou [satan] also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[satan will be covered with worms]

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The devil is cast out at the end times. Even the passage in Isaiah says “Shalt be” which suggests a time in the future.

Jesus only said “I saw Satan fall”, this could be a vision of a future event. The Bible never clearly indicates that Satan is already cast out.