Who is our True God? (Hinduism)

[Pleroma]

Who is he to us?

He is a traditional scholar who has extensively studied the Vedas and the Upanishads any argument on Hinduism without considering him is incomplete.

That attitude shows you have no respect for anyone or for the Vedas or the Upanishads. Why are you here arguing about it in the first place if you don't want to learn anything about it.? Just to deliberately misrepresent it?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I put it for you, not for a "you people" who must be accused and lectured.

 

[ratikala]

dear pleroma

Didn't Krishna said in Bhagvad Gita that even if you worship other gods it reaches me in the end?

you say this , which is true ! yet you continue to argue against that point , arguing that surya is the supreme ?

I have allready quoted you the passage where krsna reveals that he him self instructed surya .

hiranyagarbha is the source of the creation of this universe therefore hiranyagharbha is an epithet for brahma , a manifestation of the supreme !

 

[ratikala]

dear pleroma

Krishna appeared to us in his human form. How do you know what he was before that?

please read the bhagavad gita , ...... krsna spoke the gita specificaly to answer your question .

Sun is our true God.

the sun is the presiding deity of this universe , above and beyond this universe are many universes created by the one supreme .
O conquer of wealth there is no truth superior to me , everything rests on me as pearls are strung upon a thread .bhagavad gita ch 7 ... v 7

Do you think just by doing idol worship in the temples we can achieve liberation. Knowledge is the key and that requires a deep study of the methodology of the Vedas.

deity worship is not idol worship !!!deity means divinity !

allways thinking of me , become my devotee , offer obeisances to me and worship me .being completely absorbed in me you will certainly come to me . bhagavad gita ch 9 ...v 34

when you read the bhagavad gita please pay particular attention to the chapters discussing bhakti yoga . I think you will find it most enlightening :namaste

 

[Pleroma]

dear pleroma



please read the bhagavad gita , ...... krsna spoke the gita specificaly to answer your question .

the sun is the presiding deity of this universe , above and beyond this universe are many universes created by the one supreme .
O conquer of wealth there is no truth superior to me , everything rests on me as pearls are strung upon a thread .bhagavad gita ch 7 ... v 7

deity worship is not idol worship !!!deity means divinity !

allways thinking of me , become my devotee , offer obeisances to me and worship me .being completely absorbed in me you will certainly come to me . bhagavad gita ch 9 ...v 34

when you read the bhagavad gita please pay particular attention to the chapters discussing bhakti yoga . I think you will find it most enlightening :namaste

Instead of selective quoting and moving the goal posts I would appreciate if you address my arguments properly.

Krishna appeared to us in his human form. How do you know what he was before that?

“Chchaaya Samjna Sametha Sri SuryaNarayanaSwamine Namaha, Aum Namo Naaraayanaaya, Swamin Praseeda Praseeda”.

How do you think Ramanujacharya interpreted the Isha Upanishad?

Hum Shri Surya Narayanaye Namaha.

Sun is our true God.

That's the difference between exoteric religion and the esoteric religion. If you have had completely read the Vedas and the Upanishads and after if you had read the Bhagvad Gita I am sure you wouldn't have a problem with what I am saying. You are interpreting the Bhagvad Gita so literally that you are not understanding the esoteric hidden meaning in it.

I have no problems with Bhagvad Gita, its one of our sacred texts which says both Karmakhanda and Jnanakhanda are same which is my firm belief.

What does Krishna say in the Bhagvad Gita?

Only the one who sees both Karmakhanda and Jnanakhanda as same is the real Jnani.

Its one of the ancient wisdom of Hinduism and if you had knew the full message of the Vedas and the Upanishads you wouldn't have had any problem with it.

When I perform Sun Salutations the last mantra which I say to end the Salutations which is according to the customs is this.

"Aum shri Surya Narayanaya Namaha"

Even hare krsna people agree with this. You should ask them.

 

[ratikala]

dear pleroma

Instead of selective quoting and moving the goal posts I would appreciate if you address my arguments properly.

with all due respects , I am not moving goal posts I have given quotations for your contemplation ,

I have no wish to address your arguements as I am not here to argue

If you bother to contemplate you will understand that the answers to your questions are answered by krsna himself , then prehaps we may discuss rather than posit arguements ?

That's the difference between exoteric religion and the esoteric religion. If you have had completely read the Vedas and the Upanishads and after if you had read the Bhagvad Gita I am sure you wouldn't have a problem with what I am saying.

are you telling me that you have" completely" read the vedas and the upanisads ?
not simply skimed but studied ?

You are interpreting the Bhagvad Gita so literally that you are not understanding the esoteric hidden meaning in it.

thankyou for your concern , but I'll let krsna be the judge of that .

I have no problems with Bhagvad Gita, its one of our sacred texts which says both Karmakhanda and Jnanakhanda are same which is my firm belief.

What does Krishna say in the Bhagvad Gita?

Only the one who sees both Karmakhanda and Jnanakhanda as same is the real Jnani.

krsna allso says that bhakti is superior .

Its one of the ancient wisdom of Hinduism and if you had knew the full message of the Vedas and the Upanishads you wouldn't have had any problem with it.

I have no problem with undestanding the gita , and no problem with understanding you .I simply wonder why you answer questions with further questions thus sidesteping the need to answer or discuss ?

When I perform Sun Salutations the last mantra which I say to end the Salutations which is according to the customs is this.

"Aum shri Surya Narayanaya Namaha"

Even hare krsna people agree with this. You should ask them.

like the krsna people (who by the way are caled gaudia vaisnavas), I have no problem with this ,

why should any devotees of visnu have any problem accepting surya as a manifestation of narayana , visnu ?
I have allready covred this point , as Krsna explains when revealing his universal form , that the sun is an expension of this divine universal form .

 

[nameless]

krsna allso says that bhakti is superior .

bhakti is superior? where it says?

 

[ratikala]

dear pleroma

please concider thas gentle and freindly advice ....

I am a student like everyone and I have told you that I am a layman like everyone in the beginning itself.

yet you speak very assertively and with much surity rather than humility ?

I don't have a guru if I had a guru like you people have then even I would had a formal study like you people. Everyone cannot know about everything. Gosh I don't even know complete Sanskrit.

then why do you tell me and others to study more before comenting ?

I have even told you that these are not my ideas and given the name of the scholar.

you then endorse those ideas as certaintys whilst admiting you are still a novice ?

I did performed Sun Salutations for one year and I am researching it and I think there is some truth in it.

keep reaserching by all means , but listen to the words of krsna and try surrendering to a little loving devotion above reaserch .

The main aim of this thread was not to show that I have more personal knowledge than everyone, the aim of this thread is to stimulate intense research into our ancient Wisdom.

please then engage in open discussion on the subject .

I am only interested in Brahman not in the manifested or the unmanifested. We should conquer both.

? we should conquer ahamkara , and surrender to the lord and ask him to reveal himself .

I very well know what I am talking about and I have made a sincere effort to understand it.

As to the idea of Hiranyagarbha being the master of Agnishoma Mandala that is not my idea, that's the idea of Devudu Narasimha Shastry and perhaps you people should read his books instead of piling a series of tests on me, failing these tests doesn't mean Hiranyagarbha is not our true God.

I have tried to explain that hiranyagarbha is but one manifestation of the true god , I am not saying that hiranyagarbha is not god , but that hiranyagarbha is but one aspect ., but you choose to refute any attempt to open the subject up for discussion ?

Yes, that's all what I have, insights. That shows I'm in the right track, thank you very much.

keep going , but please keep an open mind and try to listen to others who may well be senior in years and length of study .

 

[ratikala]

bhakti is superior? where it says?

bhagavad gita !

 

[Pleroma]

dear pleroma



with all due respects , I am not moving goal posts I have given quotations for your contemplation ,

I have no wish to address your arguements as I am not here to argue

If you bother to contemplate you will understand that the answers to your questions are answered by krsna himself , then prehaps we may discuss rather than posit arguements ?

are you telling me that you have" completely" read the vedas and the upanisads ?
not simply skimed but studied ?

thankyou for your concern , but I'll let krsna be the judge of that .

krsna allso says that bhakti is superior .
I have no problem with undestanding the gita , and no problem with understanding you .I simply wonder why you answer questions with further questions thus sidesteping the need to answer or discuss ?
like the krsna people (who by the way are caled gaudia vaisnavas), I have no problem with this ,

why should any devotees of visnu have any problem accepting surya as a manifestation of narayana , visnu ?
I have allready covred this point , as Krsna explains when revealing his universal form , that the sun is an expension of this divine universal form .

If I go by your logic then Adithya Hridyam seems to be in conflict with Vaisnava teachings where it says Sun is Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and everything. The scriptures should not contradict it with itself.

How do you see krsna or Narayana as? what is your picture of him? Do you think krsna is really like as portrayed in ISKCON and other temples or in the images which you have placed in your walls?

Shuddhasattva seems to be the only one who atleast seem to understand where I am coming from. As he said just like agnishoma mandala exists in the Brahmanda it exists in the pindanda of everyone and every living being. This is the esoteric knowledge. Deities don't exist in the temples, Deities exist in the mandalas and we can invoke them by giving sacrifices to them by reciting the Vedic mantra of that respective Deity.

I do know about Vishwaroopa Darshana, all these gods exists and belong to the one same pantheon, I don't have to argue like you are arguing that Vishnu is supreme than Surya, no that's individuation where as I am is holistic there are all one and the same, Surya is Narayana.

Whether you call him Surya, Narayana, Shiva, Prajapathi, Hiranyagarbha it doesn't change the fact that they all belong to the pantheon of the Sun, that's what they are called.

That's why Hindus are basically Sun Worshippers. Its holistic thinking and not individuation. This is what is called as Akhanda Upasana, worshipping the Vedas in the Smasthi form as a whole. I really don't care if you want to call it Surya or Narayana.

I am not here to argue that one God is SUPERIOR than the other. You have misunderstood me.

 

[Pleroma]

dear pleroma

please concider thas gentle and freindly advice ....

Thanks.

yet you speak very assertively and with much surity rather than humility ?

I am not making baseless assertions here. I have given you sources to support my claims. Why don't you address it. Its in the Upanishads and its in the Vedas and only thing is it is difficult to swallow it for your guys.

then why do you tell me and others to study more before comenting ?
you then endorse those ideas as certaintys whilst admiting you are still a novice ?

Well you and others might have more formal knowledge and know Sanskrit and have more linguistic skills but what you and others are lacking is WISDOM and arguing that Hinduism is a covering term for separate religions which originated in India.

We all are One, we don't have separate religions and this is what I am saying from the beginning of this thread and you guys have failed to recognize it because you are holding on to your exoteric religion way too much.

? we should conquer ahamkara , and surrender to the lord and ask him to reveal himself .

You have misunderstood that.

Lord is ahankara. He is the one who does everything.

Didn't Krishna say in Bhagvad Gita that there is uchith(free) karma for everyone?

So why we have to take Moha and Shoka when it is the Lord who is doing everything. This is the esoteric meaning of that statement by Krishna.

I have tried to explain that hiranyagarbha is but one manifestation of the true god , I am not saying that hiranyagarbha is not god , but that hiranyagarbha is but one aspect ., but you choose to refute any attempt to open the subject up for discussion ?

Because I am not arguing the way like you are doing. Stop this division of people into Vaishnavism, Shaivism and other sects like Devi Puruna ect etc. We all are one. Its holistic they all belong to the one same pantheon of the Sun. You can call by any name you wish but don't ever say that one God is superior than the other. All these gods exist in the Agnishoma Mandala and nothing exists apart from it.

keep going , but please keep an open mind and try to listen to others who may well be senior in years and length of study .

If I doesn't want to learn I wouldn't have come here to test my knowledge and sharing my little knowledge with everyone. If you want to convince me otherwise don't make an appeal to authority, convince me by refuting my arguments and its the content of your posts that counts not who you are as an individual.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Ahamkar is not doing everything; such is vishvakarman (another name of Prajapati; Hiranyagarbha, Narayana, etc.) Epithets all.

Ahamkar is the individuated ego, it experiences the core of awareness "Aham" (I am) + kara, volition, "to do." It is the sense of obligatory actions, thoughts, and speech that attends I-ness.

Ahamkar is indeed an aspect of Paradeva in its proper context; it is both bestowed and removed thereby.

All religions are its constructs. Hence Shri Krishna says 'abandon all dharmas and surrender unto Me.'

I don't think anyone is saying that Hiranyagarbha is a separate God from Narayana, Purusha, Vishnu or Shiva. That is not the issue here.

 

[Pleroma]

You all are taking the Sun God so literally that you are not understanding what I am saying clearly, all these gods of the Hindus exists in the agnishoma mandala.

Indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān,
ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ

"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutmān.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan."(trans. Griffith)

This is what I am saying We all are One which is the Samasthi form of Vedic Worship.

When I say Hiranygarbha or Sun God what I mean is that they all belong to the pantheon of the Sun. That's what I mean.

Hiranyagarbha means belonging to the Sun. Its something which you members are not understanding it because its illogical for your logical minds.

That's why Hindus are basically Sun Worshippers. Don't compare and confuse yourself with this Sun with the Sun God of other Sun worshipping religions. When I use the term Sun in a holistic way its definitely not what you think it is.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā

Indeed.

We are sun worshipers, but not solely so. As you show awareness of, the sun perceived by the senses and delivered through the sensorial mind, manas, to the intellect is not the true Sun. Intellect, bridged by cit kala confers the status of Purusha. This is what gayatri is, the request to bridge the intellect to the noumenon by purifying through the sun's rays.

Yes, the inner and the secret sun are of vital importance in our religion. We must understand it however in the larger overall context.

Firstly, what is a mandala? It is a concentration of energies and identities which also concentrates the aspirant's focus. As you call them both the vishrutha and the samasthi methods involve disparate rays and a unified focus, whether proceeding outwards or inwards. There is another third form of worship, but we won't go into that here. It is also said there is a secret fourth.

Anyway, the mandalas of the Vedas are invoked through Richas - the hymns of the Rig Vedas. This is equivalent to the vedantic & agamic prana pratistha. The mandala is recognized as pervading all reality, irrespective of artificial, egoborn division between the inner and the outer. The Self is transposing its internal divinity into the external reality, or recognizing the samarasa of the two.

In overapplying Western concepts of Monotheism, which certain circles of Indians have learned to curry favor with, we run the risk of losing the essence of the Vedas.

We are Sun worshipers, we are Moon worshipers, we are Fire worshipers.

And none of these are what men and dictionaries call as per the sun, the moon, and the fire, rather they are the cognates.

The physical reality is wholly constructed of devas arranged in mandalas and vahanas, orchestrated as per the music of the vedic meters and hymnal divisions. Their tanuu spreads itself through all the elements of the outer world (the Vasus), the Inner World (Adityas) and that which seams the two (the Rudras). Presiding over this weaving of the devatanu (Indra's net) are two corollary entities of Indra and Prajapati. Indra is the penultimate Lord, Prajapati the ultimate.

This is the guhya samaja mandala, reflected almost perfectly in the Vajrayana Buddhist tradition of the same name. Truly, the Vedas are preserved in the agamas, even and perhaps especially within Buddhism.

It is key to note that Indra's vajra reveals the sun. What is the meaning of this?

All of the mandalas are important, all of them. All of the deities are important.

To go back to what I was saying about cognates, the physical sun, moon and fire are representative of particular devas, and sets of devas which confer vidya and siddhi. All devas are manifest everywhere - devas are transdimensional beings whose protrusion into our limited-dimensional, simulated reality manifest as particular elements. Symbolically and qualitatively, certain deities are more manifest than others in certain substances. We identify through the outer sun with the inner sun of the enlightened intellect and the spreading and collection of the rays of consciousness (secret sun), and so forth.

The belief system itself is nigh worthless. People gain almost nothing by merely being reminded of the identity of Hiranyagarbha. It gains relevance only when it translates into practical understanding and practice.

Identities are as much veils as anything else. That spreading and collection of consciousness is a function of our capacity for attribution - earlier discussed as the dichotomy between vacaka and vakya.

This is what ought be focused on, not trumpeting from the rooftops what little we have learned under the mistaken assumption that it is, or ought be, a revolutionary shift in the thought of the current amnayas.

Frankly, you have acquired a particular, narrowed view on the Vedas, whether through fault of the scholar you are informed by, or your own reading of him. The Vedas must be taken fully, in context.

Basic point I want to make is this: We need to understand our esoteric relationship with the Sun, but we should not overemphasize the sun aspect and lose the other, greater aspects which, beyond the Sun, include kāla, kalā, vyoma, shunya and, of course, the atattva. All the traditions we currently have contain this.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

What do you make of:

Ko ham syam ity abravit, etat pradayeti, etat sya ity abravit

uyad etad bravisiti, ko ha vai nama Prajapatih ya evam veda

Do you know where this is from?

 

[Pleroma]

What do you make of:

Ko ham syam ity abravit, etat pradayeti, etat sya ity abravit

uyad etad bravisiti, ko ha vai nama Prajapatih ya evam veda

Do you know where this is from?

Nope, if you can cite the source I will sure learn it.

 

[Pleroma]

Indeed.

We are sun worshipers, but not solely so. As you show awareness of, the sun perceived by the senses and delivered through the sensorial mind, manas, to the intellect is not the true Sun. Intellect, bridged by cit kala confers the status of Purusha. This is what gayatri is, the request to bridge the intellect to the noumenon by purifying through the sun's rays.

Yes, the inner and the secret sun are of vital importance in our religion. We must understand it however in the larger overall context.

Firstly, what is a mandala? It is a concentration of energies and identities which also concentrates the aspirant's focus. As you call them both the vishrutha and the samasthi methods involve disparate rays and a unified focus, whether proceeding outwards or inwards. There is another third form of worship, but we won't go into that here. It is also said there is a secret fourth.

Anyway, the mandalas of the Vedas are invoked through Richas - the hymns of the Rig Vedas. This is equivalent to the vedantic & agamic prana pratistha. The mandala is recognized as pervading all reality, irrespective of artificial, egoborn division between the inner and the outer. The Self is transposing its internal divinity into the external reality, or recognizing the samarasa of the two.

In overapplying Western concepts of Monotheism, which certain circles of Indians have learned to curry favor with, we run the risk of losing the essence of the Vedas.

We are Sun worshipers, we are Moon worshipers, we are Fire worshipers.

And none of these are what men and dictionaries call as per the sun, the moon, and the fire, rather they are the cognates.

The physical reality is wholly constructed of devas arranged in mandalas and vahanas, orchestrated as per the music of the vedic meters and hymnal divisions. Their tanuu spreads itself through all the elements of the outer world (the Vasus), the Inner World (Adityas) and that which seams the two (the Rudras). Presiding over this weaving of the devatanu (Indra's net) are two corollary entities of Indra and Prajapati. Indra is the penultimate Lord, Prajapati the ultimate.

This is the guhya samaja mandala, reflected almost perfectly in the Vajrayana Buddhist tradition of the same name. Truly, the Vedas are preserved in the agamas, even and perhaps especially within Buddhism.

It is key to note that Indra's vajra reveals the sun. What is the meaning of this?

All of the mandalas are important, all of them. All of the deities are important.

To go back to what I was saying about cognates, the physical sun, moon and fire are representative of particular devas, and sets of devas which confer vidya and siddhi. All devas are manifest everywhere - devas are transdimensional beings whose protrusion into our limited-dimensional, simulated reality manifest as particular elements. Symbolically and qualitatively, certain deities are more manifest than others in certain substances. We identify through the outer sun with the inner sun of the enlightened intellect and the spreading and collection of the rays of consciousness (secret sun), and so forth.

The belief system itself is nigh worthless. People gain almost nothing by merely being reminded of the identity of Hiranyagarbha. It gains relevance only when it translates into practical understanding and practice.

Identities are as much veils as anything else. That spreading and collection of consciousness is a function of our capacity for attribution - earlier discussed as the dichotomy between vacaka and vakya.

This is what ought be focused on, not trumpeting from the rooftops what little we have learned under the mistaken assumption that it is, or ought be, a revolutionary shift in the thought of the current amnayas.

Frankly, you have acquired a particular, narrowed view on the Vedas, whether through fault of the scholar you are informed by, or your own reading of him. The Vedas must be taken fully, in context.

Basic point I want to make is this: We need to understand our esoteric relationship with the Sun, but we should not overemphasize the sun aspect and lose the other, greater aspects which, beyond the Sun, include kāla, kalā, vyoma, shunya and, of course, the atattva. All the traditions we currently have contain this.

I have one question. Yajnvalkya says we should know both this the manifested Hiranyagarbha and the unmanifested. So to have a complete knowledge of the ultimate reality isn't it that we should know the manifested as well as Brahman? This is what my confusion was.

What I have heard is that Buddhism is an atheistic religion with no gods and they don't really accept "something" absolutely exist. I know there are many traditions of Buddhism with varying beliefs. Is there a core set of beliefs?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

No, that's rather the grand joke of Buddhism. Every thing, even the "basics" like the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path are, in the mystical, theistic/transtheistic traditions dismantled in their meaning and made esoteric.

Buddhism is a clever series of lies - illusions, which lead to the ultimate truth. It's empty in its essence, and can be completely taken apart by a thread of deliberate contradictions which lead to higher and higher realizations.

Prajapati generates indra and Indra reveals Prajapati. Above quoted is from Aittiriya & Taittirya brahmanas, and the concept is openly expressed in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. What is the meaning of ashvamedha here?

Prajapati is Brahmā, as developed in the upanishadic tomes, and further refined in the vedantic tomes, though 'debased' for your 'common man' in the puranas but upheld in the Vedic essence for the vira and divya in the Agamas.

Brahmā is the knower of Brahman, possessing Gyan shakti, ie. Surya.

Here is the Guhyasamaja
http://pctrs.network.hu/picture/2/_/mandala_guhyasamaja_2444_1265039.jpg

The presiding deity is Akshobhyavajra - Indra, but the ultimate master and generator of the mandala is Vajradhara, the Adi Buddha, who is himself three-fold.

Vishwakarman means the architect and substance of the mandala, the deific palace. Prajapati is the generator and lord of its dwellers.

The meaning of the above quoted, as related to the veda mandala, refers to Indra asking Prajapati to bestow the power of the sun upon him, so that the other gods will recognize him as the lord of the mandala. Prajapati says then "if I give you the power of the sun, Who then will I be?" [a rhetorical question] With the self-referring answer being supplied by Indra "you shall be Who (Ka)."

I am sure you see the relevance here.

In this casing of the mandala, surya is placed in ascendancy over the union of soma and agni. This is the pattern of Shristhi, emanation. Soma placed in ascendancy over agni and surya gives the pattern of Samhara, withdrawal. Agni in ascendancy over the union of soma and surya is that of Sthiti. This trikuta upadesa is to be performed in all deva-kundas. Brought into threefold union, this kamakala contracts to the bindu, the unified manadala.

During the day, surya presides over the mandala. During the night, soma presides over the mandala. At all times, the fire is lit, agni thus is always presiding.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Yes. Vyakta and avyakta must both be known. This is so much present in the vedanta and agamas as well; all agamic traditions have some variation of the vedantic 'saguna brahman,' 'nirguna brahman' & 'parabrahman' distinction. Both nirguna and saguna must be realized for parabrahman to dawn; one leads to the other.

 

[nameless]

bhagavad gita !

which verse?