Who is smarter?

[nutshell]

With regards to IQ tests, though, I am skeptical of their effectiveness. As far as I've been able to see, IQ tests measure little more than a person's ability to do standardised IQ tests. Back in High School, I participated in an experiment with about 30 other students. For 6 weeks we took a different standardised IQ test a week (I volunteered because it got me out of maths class a day a week, ugh). My IQ shot up between week 1 and week 6 (from about 135 on the first test to 146 on the sixth, IIRC) as I became accustomed to the format of the tests and developed techniques for getting through them. Most other students showed similar results. As such, I don't put a great deal of stock in IQ tests. Their scope is limited and the system is flawed. The numbers don't mean much to me anymore, to be honest.

Exactly. That is why behavioral traits are more important than IQ.

If we limit our discussion to IQ then we must say not only are religious people not as intelligent as atheists, we must say blacks and hispanics are not as intelligent as whites and no group is as intelligent as Asians. This is what the statistics of standardized IQ tests claim.

And we all know it's not true.

 

[Faint]

Information is the fuel of intelligence, but not the engine. I have no doubt that religious people generally have the same intellectual capacity as the non religious.

I don't know about that. I've seen a lot of religious people outright deny scientific evidence that runs contrary to their beliefs (including people in this forum). Their "capacity" seems to lead them towards continued ignorance.

Faint, you have come up with some wierd ideas, but this beats all of them!

Actually, I can't take credit for this idea. I was thinking about some studies that were done after the last presidential election showing that people who voted for Bush tended to be a) less intelligent and b) more religious.

And what do you think of the studies I cited? Is it really that weird of an idea?

IQ is overrated. It's not IQ, but behavioral traits that make a true difference in life.

Behavioral traits like a group of wackos rioting and killing people because their god was lampooned in a foreign newspaper? That type of behavior?

 

[Smoke]

With regards to IQ tests, though, I am skeptical of their effectiveness. As far as I've been able to see, IQ tests measure little more than a person's ability to do standardised IQ tests. Back in High School, I participated in an experiment with about 30 other students. For 6 weeks we took a different standardised IQ test a week (I volunteered because it got me out of maths class a day a week, ugh). My IQ shot up between week 1 and week 6 (from about 135 on the first test to 146 on the sixth, IIRC) as I became accustomed to the format of the tests and developed techniques for getting through them. Most other students showed similar results. As such, I don't put a great deal of stock in IQ tests. Their scope is limited and the system is flawed. The numbers don't mean much to me anymore, to be honest.

I'm great at standardized tests! If real life were like standardized tests, I'd be some kind of potentate! Unfortunately, the kind of intelligence measured by IQ tests isn't always the most important quality in the real world.

On the OP: Religion is not, by a long shot, the only reason people do stupid things. But it does seem to be, along with greed, lust, and nationalism, one of the main reasons they do hateful and violent things.

 

[Faint]

If we limit our discussion to IQ then we must say not only are religious people not as intelligent as atheists, we must say blacks and hispanics are not as intelligent as whites and no group is as intelligent as Asians. This is what the statistics of standardized IQ tests claim.

And we all know it's not true.

Sometimes the truth hurts. Why can't some groups be smarter than others?

 

[jewscout]

Behavioral traits like a group of wackos rioting and killing people because their god was lampooned in a foreign newspaper? That type of behavior?

i wonder what that logic says about Soviet Russia, an athiestic state.


i'd like to think i'm of at least an average intelligence level regardless of my theological leanings...

 

[Faint]

i wonder what that logic says about Soviet Russia, an athiestic state.

Exactly. I'm questioning the validity of using "behavioral traits" to measure intelligence. Thanks for backing up my point.:clap

 

[michel]

I was thinking about some studies that were done after the last presidential election showing that people who voted for Bush tended to be a) less intelligent and b) more religious.

That could, of course, be coincidental; if you were to try and make a supposition such as the one you are making (and I know it isn't 'yours') you would need to have 'control groups'. In other words, you would need to use statistical data from other countries, and on different criteria.

 

[jewscout]

and i go back to a post made earlier by someone who said that maybe the reason why so many theists seem less intelligent is because there are more of them

 

[Revasser]

I'm great at standardized tests! If real life were like standardized tests, I'd be some kind of potentate! Unfortunately, the kind of intelligence measured by IQ tests isn't always the most important quality in the real world.

Indeed. Academic =/= Intelligent. One of the most academic, "smartest" people I know (we're talking "Genius" level IQ here) has so little common sense or general knowledge of the world, it's frightening. Big pothead, too.

Really, if you think the number that results from an IQ test is an accurate and meaningful measurement of an abstract idea like "intelligence", then I've got some genuine shavings of Jesus Christ's beard to sell you.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Most of the scientists of high enough stature that you would recognize thier names, are AA. Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, etc. . . . . Also, I am pretty sure it is fairly common knowledge that religiousity and education levels are inversely proportional.

http://undergraduatestudies.ucdavis.edu/explorations/2004/clark.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist/religiq2.htm

This is by no means exhaustive, or even authoritative, but shows what I was able to find in about 5 minutes or so. The more well educated one becomes, in the form of Bachelor's Degree, Master's, PhD, MD, JD, etc. . . . the less likely, statistically speaking, one is to have a high degree of religiosity.

But I must say, I agree with Jayhawker, with an addition, just under half the people I ever deal with, theists or athiests, are below average.

B.

 

[Buttercup]

I think it's quite possible for a large percentage of religious people to hold less knowledge in their minds than the non-religious because of some taboos regarding the sciences or they feel the quest for knowledge is not the most important factor in their lives....God is.

However, I don't think that intrinsically makes them less intelligent. The religious might just devote less time to education because they feel their 'calling' is elsewhere....such as worship.

 

[Popeyesays]

Lazarette??????????????????????

Lazarette is a word having nothing to do with the name Lazarus.

laz·a·ret·to also [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·ret[/size][/font] or [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·rette[/size][/font]
[size=-1]NOUN: [/size]
pl. [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·ret·tos[/size][/font] , also [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·rets[/size][/font] or [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·rettes[/size][/font]

1. A hospital treating contagious diseases.
2. A building or ship used as a quarantine station.
3. often [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]lazaret[/size][/font] Nautical A storage space between the decks of a ship.

And I would point out I am a religious person.

Regards,
Scott

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Exactly. That is why behavioral traits are more important than IQ.

If we limit our discussion to IQ then we must say not only are religious people not as intelligent as atheists, we must say blacks and hispanics are not as intelligent as whites and no group is as intelligent as Asians. This is what the statistics of standardized IQ tests claim.

And we all know it's not true.

We all know this? Are you kidding? In standardized testing, yes whites tend to score, on average higher than blacks and hispanics, tho lower than asians, and hassidic jews score highest of all. How is any of what I just typed not true?

Methinks you have let political correctness derail your good sense. It is a more and more common deficiency. Let me lay a few other, true, but not P.C. statements on you. . . .

On average men are stronger than women. (look up any world record on any strength event to prove this)

On average track athletes of West African descent are faster than their caucasian counterparts. (the top 200 times in the 100 meter dash were all posted by black athletes of West African descent)

On average Eskimos are not as adept at basketball as Lithuanians.

All true statements, all verefiable, and none of them P.C. but this lack of P.C.'ness doesn't make the statements any less true. Nor does it make the statement I re-iterated from your post regarding standardized testing any less true. It is not polite to discuss such things, and sometimes people can get their feelings hurt by such statements, but that doesn't effect the truthfulness, or lack thereof of those statements.

B.

 

[Smoke]

Lazarette??????????????????????

Lazarette is a word having nothing to do with the name Lazarus.

laz·a·ret·to also [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·ret[/size][/font] or [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·rette[/size][/font]
[size=-1]NOUN: [/size]
pl. [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·ret·tos[/size][/font] , also [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·rets[/size][/font] or [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]laz·a·rettes[/size][/font]

1. A hospital treating contagious diseases.
2. A building or ship used as a quarantine station.
3. often [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]lazaret[/size][/font] Nautical A storage space between the decks of a ship.

But doesn't it derive from Lazarus? (The beggar, "full of sores," of the parable, not the brother of Mary and Martha.)

 

[Smoke]

But doesn't it derive from Lazarus? (The beggar, "full of sores," of the parable, not the brother of Mary and Martha.)

I should have looked it up:

Etymology: Italian lazzaretto, alteration of Nazaretto, quarantine station in Venice, from Santa Maria di Nazareth, church on the island where it was located

​

 

[jewscout]

We all know this? Are you kidding? In standardized testing, yes whites tend to score, on average higher than blacks and hispanics, tho lower than asians, and hassidic jews score highest of all. How is any of what I just typed not true?

Challah!

 

[Buttercup]

Recent tests thru the school district where I live show the kids who attend schools in the poorer parts of town test lower across the board. Poverty often has a link in low test scores.

 

[Cynic]

I don't know about that. I've seen a lot of religious people outright deny scientific evidence that runs contrary to their beliefs (including people in this forum). Their "capacity" seems to lead them towards continued ignorance.

So you're saying that everyone who is religious have inferior brains compared to agnostics?

think it's quite possible for a large percentage of religious people to hold less knowledge in their minds than the non-religious because of some taboos regarding the sciences or they feel the quest for knowledge is not the most important factor in their lives....God is.

However, I don't think that intrinsically makes them less intelligent. The religious might just devote less time to education because they feel their 'calling' is elsewhere....such as worship.

This somewhat explains what I was trying to say.

 

[mr.guy]

We all know this? Are you kidding? In standardized testing, yes whites tend to score, on average higher than blacks and hispanics, tho lower than asians, and hassidic jews score highest of all.

Doesn't this also demand some attention to the third leg of the argument: namely, poverty and religiousity?

 

[Faint]

I think it's quite possible for a large percentage of religious people to hold less knowledge in their minds than the non-religious because of some taboos regarding the sciences or they feel the quest for knowledge is not the most important factor in their lives....God is.

However, I don't think that intrinsically makes them less intelligent. The religious might just devote less time to education because they feel their 'calling' is elsewhere....such as worship.

I just hope those people aren't proud of seeking worship over education (which doesn't seem like a very intelligent move in the first place).

The more well educated one becomes, in the form of Bachelor's Degree, Master's, PhD, MD, JD, etc. . . . the less likely, statistically speaking, one is to have a high degree of religiosity.

I agree. Also, this seems to imply that as people learn more they tend to become more discerning of the irrationality of most religious belief. Take you for example, you used to be religious right? But if I remember correctly, you learned some things that made you question that faith--is that not true? So, would you then say that religious people for the most part simply haven't learned enough yet about this world to understand the nonsense they adhere to? This might be like a history student who cannot describe what the Vietnam War was all about because he hasn't got to that chapter yet. Thus, should they be considered more naive, rather than less intelligent?