Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

[Dawnofhope]

I only took an introductory course on Islam, so most of what I know about Islam is what I've learned from the Baha'i Faith. I was just asking, because the new manifestation should correct the errors that have crept in to the teachings and interpretations of the previous manifestation. So from what people knew about Jesus from the NT is that he walked on water etc. etc. and rose from the dead. Then Islam makes it sound like maybe Jesus didn't die? So was there a body double? They didn't kill his spirit? They didn't kill the religious movement based on his teachings? But it confirms the virgin birth? Is there any thing that confirms the resurrection? And better yet, anything that would support a literal physical resurrection or, instead, point to a symbolic spiritual resurrection?

But, if the Quran is more authoritative than the Bible, and it says that Jesus made clay birds and they came to life, then why couldn't dead flesh be reanimated by God? Clay or dead cells? Both are lifeless? So then, the Baha'is would have to make this clay bird story symbolic also. And that is what I was wondering... if they do? Thanks Adrian

There is no need for the Baha’i writings to elaborate specifically on the story about Jesus turning clay birds into real birds. The principles are clear enough.

1/ The most important aspect of the miracle stories are the spiritual messages they convey. So the reality the Word of God can enable a spiritually blind man to see the Kingdom of God, one who is lost to walk the spiritual path and the spiritually dead to have new life. That is more important than one man being healed or brought back to life.

2/ Miracles are only proofs for those who witness them. Our faith needs a firm foundation and a belief in miracles is not sufficient. Baha’is avoid emphasis on the miracles of our Central figures.

3/ The Manifestations of God have the power to transcend the laws of nature. Miracles are possible.

4/ If science absolutely disproves something religion teaches, then believe the science. Religion that contradicts science is superstition.

5/ We all have a duty to independently investigate the nature of reality for ourselves. We need to overcome prejudice, bias and beliefs based solely on what our ancestors believed.

Apply those principles and you will have the answers to your questions.

The new Manifestation does correct the errors from previous religions. Christianity does this with Judaism, Islam with Christianity and Judaism and the Baha’i Faith with the main world religions that have existed and continue to exist. However they will not answer questions and correct errors to everyone’s satisfaction. Some upon hearing the Word of God will arise and serve. Some will be completely unmoved and others will arise in opposition. It is as Jesus spoken with the Parable of the sower.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is similar to what I've been saying all along, that Baha'is don't believe that the way any religion as believed and practiced today is correct. They all are following false beliefs and teachings. Would you agree with that statement or would you change it some ways?

I would change it to point out I do not see they are following False Teachings, what Jesus Christ said is the Truth. Consider I am reading those same passages.

What we do with that Truth, becomes the clouds and veils in each age and why God sends again His Messenger and we can not see them as such.

So that is the key, either Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth, that Jesus Christ was going to send to guide us unto all Truth, or He is not the one promised.

I made my choice and it is up to each person to make their own choices.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The age of the victim alone is enough to conclude that Muhammad is a pedophile.

No, it is not enough to conclude that, except for men who have a dirty mind and a complete lack of understanding of the culture of Islam at that time in history.
Do you even know why Muhammad took Aisha as a wife?

The truth about Muhammad and Aisha

Since the early Christians heralded Christ as a model of celibate virtue, Muhammad – who had married several times – was deemed to be driven by sinful lust. This portrayal ignored the fact that before his marriage to Aisha, Muhammad had been married to Khadija, a powerful businesswoman 15 years his senior, for 25 years. When she died, he was devastated and friends encouraged him to remarry. A female acquaintance suggested Aisha, a bright and vivacious character.

Aisha's union would also have cemented Muhammad's longstanding friendship with her father, Abu Bakr. As was the tradition in Arabia (and still is in some parts of the world today), marriage typically served a social and political function – a way of uniting tribes, resolving feuds, caring for widows and orphans, and generally strengthening bonds in a highly unstable and changing political environment. Of the women Muhammad married, the majority were widows. To consider the marriages of the prophet outside of these calculations is profoundly ahistorical.

What the records are clear on is that Muhammad and Aisha had a loving and egalitarian relationship, which set the standard for reciprocity, tenderness and respect enjoined by the Qur'an. Insights into their relationship, such as the fact they liked to drink out of the same cup or race one another, are indicative of a deep connection which belies any misrepresentation of their relationship.

To paint Aisha as a victim is completely at odds with her persona. She was certainly no wallflower. During a controversial battle in Muslim history, she emerged riding a camel to lead the troops. She was known for her assertive temperament and mischievous sense of humour – with Muhammad sometimes bearing the brunt of the jokes. During his lifetime, he established her authority by telling Muslims to consult her in his absence; after his death, she went to be become one of the most prolific and distinguished scholars of her time.

A stateswoman, scholar, mufti, and judge, Aisha combined spirituality, activism and knowledge and remains a role model for many Muslim women today. The gulf between her true legacy and her depiction in Islamophobic materials is not merely historically inaccurate, it is an insult to the memory of a pioneering woman.

Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.

The truth about Muhammad and Aisha | Myriam François-Cerrah

 

[Trailblazer]

If Mohammad was walking the earth over 500 years after Jesus died, then the fact that he practiced polygamy was proof that he ignored the teachings of Jesus Christ, who reinstated the original standard for marriage....one man, one wife.....

Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, so He was not subject to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Muhammad revealed His own laws which applied to the His own Dispensation.

Now in this new age, Baha'u'llah revealed Laws which apply to the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.
So now we are back to monogamy as the Divine Standard.

According to my beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

God's Laws do not have "exemption" clauses for people who want to create their own rules based on their own wants. The Bible's recommendation is clear...choose carefully and with spiritual maturity....because this partnership is for life.

How well has that worked?
What is the Christian divorce rate?

 

[Trailblazer]

My impression is that Baha'i Faith is like a buffet restaurant where a customer can pick a set of viand he likes without examining who cooked this viand and is it safe to eat.

Your impression is completely wrong as first impressions often are.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe we should examine everything we are taking in.
It is our souls which are at stake.

I know...
And that is precisely why I am a Baha'i.
I examined the other religions and I did not like what was o the menu.

 

[firedragon]

I know...
And that is precisely why I am a Baha'i.
I examined the other religions and I did not like what was o the menu.

Brother, with all due respect, when you say you examined the other religions what kind of analysis have you done? Can you explain what you mean in detail but objectively?

 

[firedragon]

Muhammad was a Manifestation of God, so He was not subject to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

3:144 And Mohammed is but a messenger, like many messengers who have passed before him. If he dies or is killed will you turn back on your heels? And whoever turns back on his heels, he will not harm God in the least. And God will recompense the thankful.

So do you wish to open a new thread to discuss your perception that Muhammed is a manifestation of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Brother, with all due respect, when you say you examined the other religions what kind of analysis have you done? Can you explain what you mean in detail but objectively?

I did not do an in depth analysis of all the religions.... I did not need to in order to know that the Baha'i Faith was true. and because I can take what I believe is true from all the other religions, I did not to cast aside any truth from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

3:144 And Mohammed is but a messenger, like many messengers who have passed before him. If he dies or is killed will you turn back on your heels? And whoever turns back on his heels, he will not harm God in the least. And God will recompense the thankful.

So do you wish to open a new thread to discuss your perception that Muhammed is a manifestation of God?

I believe that Muhammad was a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God and a Servant of God and the Voice of God.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. ..........For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been 55 made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

 

[firedragon]

I did not do an in depth analysis of all the religions.... I did not need to in order to know that the Baha'i Faith was true. and because I can take what I believe is true from all the other religions, I did not to cast aside any truth from God.

I did not say that you "Have to" do in-depth analysis on religions to have faith in yours. I am asking based on your own statement that you have examined other religions so I wish to know what kind of analysis you have done. This is based on your own statement, not my insistence you should.

 

[firedragon]

I believe that Muhammad was a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God and a Servant of God and the Voice of God.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. ..........For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been 55 made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

Right. I get that of course you will quote Bahai writings and that's your prerogative. But do you say both Bahai teachings and Islamic teachings state that Muhammed was a manifestation of God or only the Bahai teachings? Do you reject Islamic Muhammed or do you reinterpret it?

 

[Trailblazer]

I did not say that you "Have to" do in-depth analysis on religions to have faith in yours. I am asking based on your own statement that you have examined other religions so I wish to know what kind of analysis you have done. This is based on your own statement, not my insistence you should.

I originally said: "I examined the other religions and I did not like what was on the menu."
Examining them does not equate to an "analysis."

I did not do any analysis per se. I learned about other religion by posting to people and reading posts on various forums and I then read about some of these religions on various websites and I read some of their scriptures.

 

[firedragon]

I did not do any analysis per se. I learned about other religion by posting to people and reading posts on various forums and I then read about some of these religions on various websites and I read some of their scriptures.

Alright fine. At least you have done that. What I am asking is, what analysis have you done? Even if its from the sources you mentioned, what is your analysis? Big or small. Please explain. But explain specifically, because honestly brother most people who make fleeting statements have not made any analysis at all. I trust you to have actually made some analysis so that's why I am asking this question. Thus, please explain specifically.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right. I get that of course you will quote Bahai writings and that's your prerogative. But do you say both Bahai teachings and Islamic teachings state that Muhammed was a manifestation of God or only the Bahai teachings? Do you reject Islamic Muhammed or do you reinterpret it?

I do not know the Islamic teachings very well but from what I know they say that Muhammad was a Messenger of God, and I do not reject that. I do not think any religions prior to the Baha'i Faith referred to Manifestations of God, it is a new concept.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My impression is that Baha'i Faith is like a buffet restaurant where a customer can pick a set of viand he likes without examining who cooked this viand and is it safe to eat.

Faith should indeed be a Banquet, much like the last supper to which we eat our fill of the Spirit of Christ, Abdul'baha also offered this is what attracts the divine blessings (bold by poster);

"...Although I, too, have infinite longing to meet the believers on that continent, yet that region must attain to the capacity of attracting the presence of 'Abdu'l-Bahá. A harmonious and wonderful banquet must be prepared, at which every kind of heavenly food may be served: after which you may send me an invitation.

That heavenly food consists of deeds which are in accord with the Divine Teachings. The first food is the Love of God. The second food is the attraction to the breaths of the Holy Spirit. The third food is union and harmony among all the believers. The fourth food is sincerity, trustworthiness, kindness, purity of intention and service to all humankind.

Should ye prepare and serve such a delicious, sweet and tempting banquet unquestionably 'Abdu'l-Bahá will hasten to America to partake of that food. Therefore endeavour ye with all your might that this Food be prepared."

That is the Banquet that I see that Christ offered and that Baha'u'llah now offers.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”

Therefore,

“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”

And,

“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”

Now if Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then this could be how those scriptures posted can be read, the bold blue being what Baha'u'llah offered;

“I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

Therefore,

“Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”

And,

“I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no need for the Baha’i writings to elaborate specifically on the story about Jesus turning clay birds into real birds. The principles are clear enough.

1/ The most important aspect of the miracle stories are the spiritual messages they convey. So the reality the Word of God can enable a spiritually blind man to see the Kingdom of God, one who is lost to walk the spiritual path and the spiritually dead to have new life. That is more important than one man being healed or brought back to life.

2/ Miracles are only proofs for those who witness them. Our faith needs a firm foundation and a belief in miracles is not sufficient. Baha’is avoid emphasis on the miracles of our Central figures.

3/ The Manifestations of God have the power to transcend the laws of nature. Miracles are possible.

4/ If science absolutely disproves something religion teaches, then believe the science. Religion that contradicts science is superstition.

5/ We all have a duty to independently investigate the nature of reality for ourselves. We need to overcome prejudice, bias and beliefs based solely on what our ancestors believed.

Apply those principles and you will have the answers to your questions.

The new Manifestation does correct the errors from previous religions. Christianity does this with Judaism, Islam with Christianity and Judaism and the Baha’i Faith with the main world religions that have existed and continue to exist. However they will not answer questions and correct errors to everyone’s satisfaction. Some upon hearing the Word of God will arise and serve. Some will be completely unmoved and others will arise in opposition. It is as Jesus spoken with the Parable of the sower.

To me it is too easily the wrong message that gets conveyed... the "superstitious" one. Whether it is Moses having his cane turn into a snake, or Jesus walking on water or making clay birds... the literal belief in the story is what ancient people were taught to believe. And, even with modern science, that literal belief is way to hard for Christians to let go of. But then, without the miraculous stories, would the ancient people have believed the message?

Like if the Bilbe said, "Moses says we should obey these laws." The answer would be "So, what gives him authority?" But when the Bible says it was the Almighty God... and that because Moses and others obeyed God and great miracles happened... And that also many bad things happened to those that didn't obey God, then the Bible reader is going to think, "Well I better do this." Until now, to where modern man thinks, "Yeah, right who needs all those phony stories about miracles." The extreme of that thinking includes of course putting the idea of a Great invisible God as part of the "phony" story.

So that would not make the miracles proofs to those who witnessed them, but the miracles become something made up to try and "prove" to the reader how great God is.

 

[firedragon]

I do not know the Islamic teachings very well but from what I know they say that Muhammad was a Messenger of God, and I do not reject that. I do not think any religions prior to the Baha'i Faith referred to Manifestations of God, it is a new concept.

Its actually not a new concept. But that's all good, it is your faith and more power to you.

But the discussion leads to examination of scripture to correlate your faith with another. Thus since you claim Muhammad was a manifestation of God I would not dream but affirm that it should be based on Muhammed himself. Did he claim he was a manifestation of God? Is there anything from him who is the source of himself?