Who is the greater sinner?

[Gjallarhorn]

It may or may not fit them.
Would you please elaborate on how you see that it could?

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1 Samuel 6:19-20)

They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:7-9, 15-18)

Murder? Check. Plundering? Check. Rape? Check.

And as for #2:

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)

Blinding people to truth? Yuppers. Enslaving minds? Absolutely.

 

[ChristineES]

Both are wrong equally. As humans, we should question everything we hear, everything we see, everything we think we know. It is easier to protect yourself from a false teacher if you do those things. You could probably protect yourself from the first man, but once you're dead, you're dead.

But what if the false teacher doesn't know he/she is wrong about what he or she is teaching?

 

[kylixguru]

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1 Samuel 6:19-20)

They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.

“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:7-9, 15-18)

Murder? Check. Plundering? Check. Rape? Check.

And as for #2:

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (Matthew 17:20)

Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)

Blinding people to truth? Yuppers. Enslaving minds? Absolutely.

Thank you for taking the time to expound.
I am definitely without a doubt now about what you meant.
And, I'm content to allow it to stand on its own merits.

Add: BTW, God does get it in the end too. Both Father and Son pay the same price everyone does.

 

[Iti oj]

The devil is never any more evil then when he appears to be the angle of light

 

[Storm]

While it doesn't affect the question of the op, there's also the possibility that, following the liar's death, his followers will evolve into a legitimate group of seekers with a working worldview.

From an anthropological perspective, I would LOVE to see what Scientology becomes in a century or two! (Assuming it doesn't just die out for the scam it is now.)

 

[kylixguru]

Depends on what is that he is teaching wrong I guess.

Yes, it does. Feel free to answer the poll and then explain whatever you like here to put your vote in a context you are comfortable with.

 

[kylixguru]

While it doesn't affect the question of the op, there's also the possibility that, following the liar's death, his followers will evolve into a legitimate group of seekers with a working worldview.

From an anthropological perspective, I would LOVE to see what Scientology becomes in a century or two! (Assuming it doesn't just die out for the scam it is now.)

Very interesting insight. That is indeed a possibility.

 

[Storm]

For a disturbing bent on that perspective, would it lead to the unrepentant liar being venerated as Enlightened/ a Prophet/ your adulation of choice?

 

[kylixguru]

For a disturbing bent on that perspective, would it lead to the unrepentant liar being venerated as Enlightened/ a Prophet/ your adulation of choice?

Perhaps that could be ascribed by some to such.
I think it would be a rather unlikely and pathetic happenstance, but the Fool is one card in the deck.

 

[Storm]

Perhaps that could be ascribed by some to such.
I think it would be a rather unlikely and pathetic happenstance, but the Fool is one card in the deck.

I mean after several centuries, when the details have been lost.

 

[McBell]

1) A man came as a great warrior and committed much evil, murdering, raping and
plundering.

2) And another came after him in the guise of righteousness, perverting the people's minds to false notions, blinding them to the truth, binding the hearts and minds of men to mental slavery from generation to generation.

Who is the greater sinner?

How exactly do you "measure" sin?

How exactly do you "measure" evil?

 

[kylixguru]

I mean after several centuries, when the details have been lost.

Gotcha!
Seems to me that most anything, whether good or bad at its inception, tends to take on a life of its own independant of its original intent.

Christianity itself is a prime example.

 

[Storm]

Any religion more than a few hundred years old may be, which is my point.

Hell, Wicca sometimes falls prey to it, and that hasn't even got a whole century under it's belt!

 

[kylixguru]

How exactly do you "measure" sin?

How exactly do you "measure" evil?

Very fair questions.

I'm just speaking in general terms, which admittedly are quite subjective in nature.

Feel free to answer the poll and to clarify your answer here and give us a brief idea of why you answered what you did.

The purpose of this is for you to share with us how you measure "sin" and "evil" in this particular case.

 

[kylixguru]

Any religion more than a few hundred years old may be, which is my point.

Hell, Wicca sometimes falls prey to it, and that hasn't even got a whole century under it's belt!

This is where you start entering into the realm of identifying social movements, religions, groups, etc. as their own distinct personality as a collective that inevitably seem to take on a will of its own.

I have come to understand that such distinct entities do in fact exist and that they are what Paul referred to as bodies of flesh and bone, per Ephesians 5:30. What it seems Paul was hinting at was that Christianity itself was the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. And, that body did most definitely develop a mind of its own.

 

[Storm]

Could we NOT turn this into a "bash religion x" thread?

 

[kylixguru]

Could we NOT turn this into a "bash religion x" thread?

Please just NOT take what I say that way and we are good to go.

I use my own religion from my upbringing because I am most familiar with it.

 

[Storm]

Kinda hard not to, in context.

 

[kylixguru]

Kinda hard not to, in context.

Please just think of me as someone willing to be self-critical. Not in a harsh or depressing way, but in a way that tries to keep myself in my proper place.
If I am going to be a Christian, I want to be one as it was originally intended or I should walk away from it.

Add: Which is why I did finally opt to answer #2 on the poll.

 

[Renji]

Both are sinner. But in terms of who has committed a "greater sin", I leave the judgement to God.