Who is the Mahdi in Islam?

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Tony, you and your Bahai brothers are holding to circumstantial evidence.

You don't have conclusive evidence. I understand some things in ahadith can be interpreted to favor your view.
Over all, hadiths say many things, and finding something that can be interpreted to interpret new Prophethood can happen. At the end, you need to build on clear proofs and a clear case.

Quoting from ahadith and interpreting them in one way over another, is not a clear way of doing this, if your Prophets resorted to that method, than it's a failed religion.

The way Mohammad and his family are in the Torah and Gospels are in a way, that, is conclusive. Not as in particularly Mohammad and his family, but the structure of divinely chosen family, you can find. Other things, like the philosophy of Ghayba is hinted therein as well.

Warning of destruction in Moses' words "by the one you who you will send" which is the Mahdi, is also in there.

And the way Mohammad and the 12 Successors are in the Torah and Gospels till today, is in the same way the family of Taha and Yaseen, the family of Mohammad and Ali are in Quran, but people don't perceive because they rely on ambiguity.

Since the Torah is revealed in truth and guides to the truth and Gospels as well, there is no doubt it making way to a family of a reminder in the future.

Now you can similarly argue the case with the need of new Ahlulbayt in this time with Quran if you ignore that many verses about the universal plan with Mohammad and his family, including sealing Prophethood and safeguarding the reminder and that Mohammad is a Messenger to all humans type reminders in Quran, but ignoring that, your structure no doubt would have to be an Ahlulbayt with exactly one founder and 12 Successors.

That is the way Quran confirms and that is what hadiths confirm. If you can see this Ahlulbayt structure and 12 Successors is the number. Every Prophet has an Ahlulbayt, and the Ahlulbayt of Jesus is his PREDECESSORS all the way back to Moses.

This is one reason for God's wisdom, in mentioning how the structure of Ahlulbayt must be, in all times.....

There is no well, it was Twelve all this time, and now there is an exception... that is not how Quran iterates it how one family of the reminder replaces another, and how one divinely chosen house is given authority and negated from the others....

I understand, Sealing Prophethood is odd, and Quran understood that. This is why it went into lengths with the sin of Adam and with the "abiding ones or to be a king" with "the tree of abiding or authority that doesn't go away", and that is Ahlulbayt according to hadiths.

They are similar but at the same time much higher then other chosen families of the past, and they are by which God initiated creation and who taught the Angels to glorify God and now have come to save humanity from the destruction that looks like is ever coming.

The Mahdi was described by many hadiths as the last of the remaining proofs of God. He is the last one by many ahadith.

But building on a hadith or numerous ones even, is not a clear way. It's when you see the plan with Mohammad and his family in Quran, when you understand, why there was always a guide in all times.

It's when you understand miracles are emphasized because they are always possible, whether they are in public or not, they are possible, and the Mahdi is the one who inherited this position of manifesting the signs.

I don't know what else to advise with, but to give Quran a chance to illuminate itself through the help of Ahlulbayt.

This notion that 3:7 makes much of Quran ambiguous is a lie, no, the Quran shows it's clear and all of clear signs, but that Iblis (God curse him) always cast sorcery with respect to God's revelations and hardened hearts make unclear what is clear by distorting words away from their place. This initial tahreef then leads to additional physical tahreef. But physical tahreef has not and will not occur with respect to Quran.

But the sorcery makes unclear what is otherwise very clear by language.

So 3:7 shows people with a problem with them to say the least, will not follow the clear signs and reflect over it's bright reminders to build clear foundations and see clear reasoning, but rather, will follow ambiguities seeking to interpret the Quran while in reality, as for the whole Quran, no one knows it's interpretation but God and his chosen ones (the firmly rooted in knowledge).

It's not important to understand all of Quran which we cannot and will never do, but rather, it's important to build everything we know on clear signs and insights, and not follow what we don't, and it's acknowledge none know all the Quran interpretation but God and his chosen ones. Trust therefore in the chosen family to manifest it's wonders and clarify what the dark forces try to hide.

The Quran cannot be deleted - words won't be deleted, but it's light is being fought so hard by dark forces, and it's light is Ahlulbayt and the light of Ahlulbayt is the Quran, they are one reminder, together, not to be separated.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Imams were speaking in riddles. Here the trick to understand it, is, 6 days, 6 months, or 6 years all mean the same. So, it does not matter to say 6 days, or 6 months. Both of them mean 6 years, in the same way that a day in bible is a year, in Hadithes a month of God, means one year. This is the duration of imprisonment of the Qaim, which is called disappearance.

I like that saying it in that way also gives the possibility of 18 and 9.

18 letters of the living and Baha!

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Tony, you and your Bahai brothers are holding to circumstantial evidence.

You don't have conclusive evidence. I understand some things in ahadith can be interpreted to favor your view.
Over all, hadiths say many things, and finding something that can be interpreted to interpret new Prophethood can happen. At the end, you need to build on clear proofs and a clear case.

Quoting from ahadith and interpreting them in one way over another, is not a clear way of doing this, if your Prophets resorted to that method, than it's a failed religion.

The way Mohammad and his family are in the Torah and Gospels are in a way, that, is conclusive. Not as in particularly Mohammad and his family, but the structure of divinely chosen family, you can find. Other things, like the philosophy of Ghayba is hinted therein as well.

Warning of destruction in Moses' words "by the one you who you will send" which is the Mahdi, is also in there.

And the way Mohammad and the 12 Successors are in the Torah and Gospels till today, is in the same way the family of Taha and Yaseen, the family of Mohammad and Ali are in Quran, but people don't perceive because they rely on ambiguity.

Since the Torah is revealed in truth and guides to the truth and Gospels as well, there is no doubt it making way to a family of a reminder in the future.

Now you can similarly argue the case with the need of new Ahlulbayt in this time with Quran if you ignore that many verses about the universal plan with Mohammad and his family, including sealing Prophethood and safeguarding the reminder and that Mohammad is a Messenger to all humans type reminders in Quran, but ignoring that, your structure no doubt would have to be an Ahlulbayt with exactly one founder and 12 Successors.

That is the way Quran confirms and that is what hadiths confirm. If you can see this Ahlulbayt structure and 12 Successors is the number. Every Prophet has an Ahlulbayt, and the Ahlulbayt of Jesus is his PREDECESSORS all the way back to Moses.

This is one reason for God's wisdom, in mentioning how the structure of Ahlulbayt must be, in all times.....

There is no well, it was Twelve all this time, and now there is an exception... that is not how Quran iterates it how one family of the reminder replaces another, and how one divinely chosen house is given authority and negated from the others....

I understand, Sealing Prophethood is odd, and Quran understood that. This is why it went into lengths with the sin of Adam and with the "abiding ones or to be a king" with "the tree of abiding or authority that doesn't go away", and that is Ahlulbayt according to hadiths.

They are similar but at the same time much higher then other chosen families of the past, and they are by which God initiated creation and who taught the Angels to glorify God and now have come to save humanity from the destruction that looks like is ever coming.

The Mahdi was described by many hadiths as the last of the remaining proofs of God. He is the last one by many ahadith.

But building on a hadith or numerous ones even, is not a clear way. It's when you see the plan with Mohammad and his family in Quran, when you understand, why there was always a guide in all times.

It's when you understand miracles are emphasized because they are always possible, whether they are in public or not, they are possible, and the Mahdi is the one who inherited this position of manifesting the signs.

I don't know what else to advise with, but to give Quran a chance to illuminate itself through the help of Ahlulbayt.

This notion that 3:7 makes much of Quran ambiguous is a lie, no, the Quran shows it's clear and all of clear signs, but that Iblis (God curse him) always cast sorcery with respect to God's revelations and hardened hearts make unclear what is clear by distorting words away from their place. This initial tahreef then leads to additional physical tahreef. But physical tahreef has not and will not occur with respect to Quran.

But the sorcery makes unclear what is otherwise very clear by language.

So 3:7 shows people with a problem with them to say the least, will not follow the clear signs and reflect over it's bright reminders to build clear foundations and see clear reasoning, but rather, will follow ambiguities seeking to interpret the Quran while in reality, as for the whole Quran, no one knows it's interpretation but God and his chosen ones (the firmly rooted in knowledge).

It's not important to understand all of Quran which we cannot and will never do, but rather, it's important to build everything we know on clear signs and insights, and not follow what we don't, and it's acknowledge none know all the Quran interpretation but God and his chosen ones. Trust therefore in the chosen family to manifest it's wonders and clarify what the dark forces try to hide.

The Quran cannot be deleted - words won't be deleted, but it's light is being fought so hard by dark forces, and it's light is Ahlulbayt and the light of Ahlulbayt is the Quran, they are one reminder, together, not to be separated.

It was not meant to be clear. Muhammad is also not clear in Torah. If He was, Jews and Christians did not reject Him.

 

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It was not meant to be clear. Muhammad is also not clear in Torah. If He was, Jews and Christians did not reject Him.

The notion that people would accept what is clear is false. The Quran says "and we gave the clear proofs regarding the authority/affair..." and then goes on to talk about how they divided despite knowledge.

 

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What I'm saying, is don't build on conjecture (circumstantial evidence is a type of unsure conjecture), for Quran says it won't avail for the truth. We need conjecture in real life, but for the truth, you can't rely on it. We need to rely on conjecture for so many things, but religion is to be free of it!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The notion that people would accept what is clear is false. The Quran says "and we gave the clear proofs regarding the authority/affair..." and then goes on to talk about how they divided despite knowledge.

Yes, lets remember the Quran says it is a clear Book, yet, in 3:7 it says, some of its verses are Mutishabihat, and no one knows their interpretations except for God...
So, if Quran is a clear Book, why there are some verses no one knows their true interpretations)

Clear does not mean it is easy to understand. It is clear only to those who have a pure heart. Allah says, He puts a seal on the heart of the transgressors. So, this is why, Muhammad was rejected. They did not understand the Prophecies which were written in symbolic languages. Now, the same is supposed to happen to people of Islam, as Muhammad said, Muslims follow Jews and Christians inch by inch.

 

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Yes, lets remember the Quran says it is a clear Book, yet, in 3:7 it says, some of its verses are Mutishabihat, and no one knows their interpretations except for God...
So, if Quran is a clear Book, why there are some verses no one knows their true interpretations)

Clear does not mean it is easy to understand. It is clear only to those who have a pure heart. Allah says, He puts a seal on the heart of the transgressors. So, this is why, Muhammad was rejected. They did not understand the Prophecies which were written in symbolic languages.

3:7 says no such thing.

It says from the book comes clear signs and also the other thing that comes from it is ambiguities. For example, our hadiths say an example of clear signs from the book is Ali and his family rights. That is clear. And example of ambiguities followed from it is their enemies - if someone follow their enemies and try to justify it by Quran, they are relying on ambiguities from it.

The Quran has also said it's been made the Quran easy for the reminder.

You got to understand 3:7 says from the book comes two type of things, clear signs, and ambiguities, clear recitations build all on clear knowledge, but the true book is clear. And to know whole book is impossible, no one knows that but God and his chosen ones.....but it's main message is to not build on ambiguities.

Build on clear foundations as all the clear signs are found in the mother of the book, while ambiguities may or may not be there, and almost all the time, they are opposite to the clear recitation and purely from sorcery from Iblis in the hearts and minds of humans.

 

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It didn't say some of it's verse are ambiguity and ambiguous in nature, it says from it is clear signs (proofs/insights) and the other thing that comes from it is ambiguity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What I'm saying, is don't build on conjecture (circumstantial evidence is a type of unsure conjecture), for Quran says it won't avail for the truth. We need conjecture in real life, but for the truth, you can't rely on it. We need to rely on conjecture for so many things, but religion is to be free of it!

Right. The Prophecies about a future Messenger has never given in a clear language. It has always been in symbolic language. But the Proofs of a Messenger is clear. It is His knowledge without studying. Muhammad did not study books, but He knew things of past and future.

 

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What you are saying is false. It's always been given a clear language, I read the Gospels, and I see clear prophecy and explanation of who are the instances of the holy spirit/image/name of God.

 

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And you don't understand the last Messenger to be sent and proof of God and guiding king is clearly in Quran, predicted, and the Mahdi is central in the Quran.

But you aren't even willing to give me a chance to prove how and why and where...