Who is the one given as a covenant for the people in Isaiah 49

[Muffled]

In the servant songs a singular individual is given as a covenant for the people
Who would that be in a Jewish, Christian or Muslim view?

I t is Jesus as Is. 49:6 says " I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

This prophecy has been fulfilled in Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

I'm not bothered about what any of your Christian Testament references say; anyone reading this chapter knows straight away it's about Israel. It even points that out. You don't just get to say, Oh it says Israel but it means Jesus - that's a cop out. If it meant Jesus it would say Jesus.

So are you saying that Isreal comes out of a womb? Jesus certainly did.

Isa. 49:1 The LORD called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name.

I believe Jesus was named while still in the womb by God.

 

[Rival]

So are you saying that Isreal comes out of a womb? Jesus certainly did.

Isa. 49:1 The LORD called me from the womb,
from the body of my mother he named my name.

Jesus was named while still in the womb by God.

So was the prophet who spoke this. It was Isaiah. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who didn't come from a womb.

 

[Muffled]

The prophet is speaking of himself there and is using Jacob and Israel interchangeably, as is often the case as it was the same man.

And now, the Lord, Who formed me (Isaiah) from the womb as a servant to Him, said to bring Jacob (Israel) back to Him, and Israel (Jacob) shall be gathered to Him, and I will be honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God was my strength.

So I believe you should show me the passage where Isaiah actually acted as a light to the gentiles and spread the word to the ends of the earth.

 

[Muffled]

So was the prophet who spoke this. It was Isaiah. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who didn't come from a womb.

I believe the nation of Israel didn't.

 

[moorea944]

I believe the nation of Israel didn't.

Your missing the point. "From the womb" is a saying. It was "like" they were from the womb because of what they meant to God. Israel was God's children. God also calls them his first born too in the OT. His savor, their God, etc.....

 

[Muffled]

You're thinking of Roman Catholicism. I do not believe in Roman Catholicism's "trinity". It makes of God nothing in the end (definition from such upon request). What the Bible (KJB) teaches is a trio of Persons/Beings; namely the person/being of the Father, the person/being of the Son, and the person/being of the Holy Spirit, all working together, like as unto a chord (in music).

So, the Bible doesn't teach the spiritualism (satanic) of Roman Catholicism. The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe.

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.

I believe there are some problems with this view. First of all a trio is a trinity but I doubt that they were ordained to sing together. No doubt the RCC has their version of the Trinity that they believe in but I view it as not an accurate understanding of the Biblical concept.

 

[Muffled]

Your missing the point. "From the womb" is a saying. It was "like" they were from the womb because of what they meant to God. Israel was God's children. God also calls them his first born too in the OT. His savor, their God, etc.....

I believe you have to stretch the truth a long way to get what you wish. What you don't get is the truth.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I'm not bothered about what any of your Christian Testament references say; anyone reading this chapter knows straight away it's about Israel. It even points that out. You don't just get to say, Oh it says Israel but it means Jesus - that's a cop out. If it meant Jesus it would say Jesus.

It seems problematic to say in Isaiah 49 you have been given in the singular for the people plural
This is a similar difficulty with Isaiah 53

Although in the book of Acts it could be argued it is Christ and the Church in Christ as that's how Peter applies Isaiah 49:6 there.

How might the singular servant in Isaiah 40-53 (of the servant song) contrast with the plural servants in Isiah 54 - 66 (of the servants songs). The singular is deliberate.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I t is Jesus as Is. 49:6 says " I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

This prophecy has been fulfilled in Jesus.

In Acts that verse is also used of the church in Christ
Acts 13:47 New International Version (NIV)
47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

note the word 'us' regarding the church (which is in Christ)
so maybe it is true Israel, the church which is in Christ

 

[whirlingmerc]

Your missing the point. "From the womb" is a saying. It was "like" they were from the womb because of what they meant to God. Israel was God's children. God also calls them his first born too in the OT. His savor, their God, etc.....

It's not physical Israel

And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,

this is someone who will redeem Jacob not merely Jacob
The church in Christ fits
It's true Israel

 

[Rival]

It seems problematic to say in Isaiah 49 you have been given in the singular for the people plural
This is a similar difficulty with Isaiah 53

Although in the book of Acts it could be argued it is Christ and the Church in Christ as that's how Peter applies Isaiah 49:6 there.

How might the singular servant in Isaiah 40-53 (of the servant song) contrast with the plural servants in Isiah 54 - 66 (of the servants songs). The singular is deliberate.

Israel is often referred to in the singular; this is all throughout the prophets; just as Jerusalem is referred to as 'she'.

 

[robocop (actually)]

In the servant songs a singular individual is given as a covenant for the people
Who would that be in a Jewish, Christian or Muslim view?

What verse? I think it's Jesus Christ throughout.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're thinking of Roman Catholicism. I do not believe in Roman Catholicism's "trinity".

You are aware that Christianity is much larger than Roman Catholicism and whatever minority flavor of fundie Evangelicalism you subscribe to, right? There's the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox (both just as ancient as Catholicism), there's the Eastern-Rite Catholics (in communion with the Bishop of Rome but with different traditions from their Latin-Rite brethren), Anglicans, mainline Protestants, etc. Guess what? All of them believe in the Trinity. You non-Trinitarians are a very tiny minority in Christianity.

 

[robocop (actually)]

In the servant songs a singular individual is given as a covenant for the people
Who would that be in a Jewish, Christian or Muslim view?

Although this was posted by me in the literature section, I hope it's OK to post here since it is relevant.

You can read Isaiah 49 and 1 Nephi 21 at scriptures.lds.org . 1 Nephi is part of the Book of Mormon.

1 Nephi 21 is supposed to be a better translation than the KJV of Isaiah 49. You can judge for yourself.

Anyway, I wrote commentary in my free book at www.allmynoodles.com/five . You can find 1 Nephi 21 there.

You can follow along and see what you think about my argument that it is Jesus Christ from the viewpoint of my Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I believe a general viewpoint.

Hopefully the mods are OK with that.

 

[PruePhillip]

I'm not bothered about what any of your Christian Testament references say; anyone reading this chapter knows straight away it's about Israel. It even points that out. You don't just get to say, Oh it says Israel but it means Jesus - that's a cop out. If it meant Jesus it would say Jesus.

It's ambiguous, but I suggest it's Israel.
Having said that there are other verses which Israel sees as itself (Isaiah 53)
but clearly are a Messiah - for a people can't be their own Redeemer.

 

[74x12]

In the servant songs a singular individual is given as a covenant for the people
Who would that be in a Jewish, Christian or Muslim view?

It's Jesus of course. He is the "heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 36:36) that would replace the "heart of stone" which is the tablets of the old Covenant. It's symbolic that the people's hearts were still hardened(as stone) and could not truly submit to the Law of God. And He would sprinkle the nations with His own blood. (Isaiah 52:15) Just as Moses sprinkled the people with the blood of animals. (Exodus 24:8)

The Hebrew nation was an earthly people. A worldly nation. Their hearts could not be subject to the Law of God.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)

It takes the regeneration from within by the outpouring of the holy Spirit that can really make someone's heart submit to the Law of God.

This is why the Spirit is given to turn us unto God from within. Because this was the great problem Jesus encountered with the Pharisees. Although they were careful to do all things in order to make an outward show of respecting God's Law ... yet Jesus claimed that within they were as filthy as dead men's bones etc. (Matthew 23:27)

 

[whirlingmerc]

It's ambiguous, but I suggest it's Israel.
Having said that there are other verses which Israel sees as itself (Isaiah 53)
but clearly are a Messiah - for a people can't be their own Redeemer.

Agreed

since the price of redeeming him is too costly, one should forever stop trying-
Ps 49:8
Holman study Bible

Only God can redeem from sin

 

[74x12]

It's ambiguous, but I suggest it's Israel.
Having said that there are other verses which Israel sees as itself (Isaiah 53)
but clearly are a Messiah - for a people can't be their own Redeemer.

Jesus is the true Israel that lives forever. Notice that Jacob is dead. "Out of Egypt I have called my Son"

Well the only way Jacob left Israel was as a corpse! (Genesis 50:7)

But Jesus died once and rose again becoming the head of the body of eternal Israel. See, you have to differentiate between earthly Israel (a mortal physical nation) and eternal Israel who is immortal and Jesus is the beginning of it. (Colossians 1:18) Even Jacob will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ. That is Jesus will be His head. So Jacob is not the beginning of the eternal Israel; just the earthly Israel.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Jesus is the true Israel that lives forever. Notice that Jacob is dead. "Out of Egypt I have called my Son"

Well the only way Jacob left Israel was as a corpse! (Genesis 50:7)

But Jesus died once and rose again becoming the head of the body of eternal Israel. See, you have to differentiate between earthly Israel (a mortal physical nation) and eternal Israel who is immortal and Jesus is the beginning of it. (Colossians 1:18) Even Jacob will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ. That is Jesus will be His head. So Jacob is not the beginning of the eternal Israel; just the earthly Israel.

The same could be said of David.

"I will set David over them" in Ezekiel

David would be figuratively representing Jesus there *** well