Who is the one who must "prove"

[Deeje]

So, "we don't know how you feel,you don't know what pains you have suffered at the hands of religion so we will call anyway"

And what good is all your red text to those who don't believe in your interpretation of god?

I know that you will not understand, but it is necessary because of what is going to happen in the future.

From our perspective, we see ourselves as something akin to emergency service workers who go house to house warning of an impending disaster. You don't have to believe in it for the disaster to be real....just look at all the covid disbelievers who want to the freedom to be infected and to infect others because they don't think it really exists.

People who have contracted the virus or who have lost loved ones can warn them, but unless they believe that the threat is real, the warning will have no effect. Does that mean they should stop warning them?

Receiving the warning puts the onus on the unbeliever because he/she can never claim ignorance.....because it was his/her choice to ignore the warning.

We believe that we are delivering a message from God (I know you don't believe that).....but this is a God who says he is going to cleanse this earth of all the ignorant, greedy idiots who are destroying it. We can see them doing it, but if we vote them into office or support their political agendas, we put ourselves in their camp and come under the same judgment. So our message is to show people how to put themselves on God's side rather than on the side of his enemies.

We do understand that our message gets up the noses of some, but we keep trying in the hope that while there is still time...there is hope for change. We have seen it happen many times. I myself used to buzz off JW's at my door. But something changed in my life that made me want answers....and the church I was attending had none.

If people don't want us to call, they can just request us not to call again and we will honor their request.
In these covid times, we aren't calling personally at the moment anyway, but we write letters and call people on the phone to offer some encouragement because these times are hard for those in confinement. They need some good news, and we believe that we have the best news possible.....a new government for this earth that will rule all the people with genuine love, and care for all their needs. A government that will dispatch all the wicked ones and leave behind those who want what God is offering. If you don't want that, then God will not force you to live there.
Isn't that fair enough?

 

[Bird123]

Well, I tried to find Real Truth but I couldn't. So now I do without it.

Give up so easily? Where did you search for the Real Truth?

 

[Bird123]

Nicly said.

I used to gave a need to give my beat proof of the path i was on, but i found tjat it does not matter anymore. I am happy where i am today, and do not need to conquer the atheists any longer. That is just waisting time.

As long i am happy where i am religiously i dont ask for more.

Yes, everyone learns on their journey. Remember, with God, there is always more to Discover. Be happy, but not so content that you do not move forward.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Aupmanyav]

I don't accept, what you say is knowledge, because it is not. You are a believer and you believe in something without proof or evidence. So I am, I just admit.https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scientific-realism/

Yeah, I am a believer in science. And there are reasons why I believe so. I can change my belief anytime it becomes necessary. I am open to change. Too late for me to go through Stanford articles. You are welcome to be a perpetual skeptic.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and we believe that we have the best news possible.....a new government for this earth that will rule all the people with genuine love, and care for all their needs. A government that will dispatch all the wicked ones and leave behind those who want what God is offering. If you don't want that, then God will not force you to live there.

Good news, Trump or Biden. Nice.
.

 

[Heyo]

I could frame the question, what evidence does an atheist have for there being no God?

An atheist is definitely making the claim that there is no God. So they have a burden of proof as well as a theist.

That would make the conversation more fair and balanced between an atheist and a theist.

It certainly shouldn't be a one way street inquisition on theists as if in a position of total authority.

If we are saying I do not know if there is a God or not then there is no burden of proof. That's different.

You seem to be uninformed about the atheists stance.
A (colloquial) atheist simply says that s/he doesn't believe in god(s). S/he has no position on objective reality.
A (philosophical) Atheist makes the claim that god(s) don't exist.
A (colloquial) agnostic simply says that s/he doesn't know about god(s). S/he has no position on objective reality.
A (philosophical) Agnostic makes the claim that the existence or nature of god isn't know (by anyone).

By claiming that all atheists have to be Atheists, you commit the fallacy of stawmaning your interlocutor.

 

[Deeje]

Good news, Trump or Biden. Nice.
.

Hardly.....for one, I'm not American......and for two, the incoming government spoken about in the Bible, is a Theocracy, and its Ruler is Jesus Christ....who is not corrupt, nor is he corruptible. No genuine Christian can hold political office according to scripture, because God's Kingdom is nothing to do with this world, and we are told to stay out of its business.

Unlike the ungodly world leaders down through history, Jesus gets his authority from God, and no one can't prevent this government from taking over control of earth's affairs. Its coming, ready or not, foreordained from the beginning....I firmly believe this, and cannot wait to live in a world where all its citizens are God fearing peace makers and lovers of justice.

 

[osgart]

Proving comes into play only when

You seem to be uninformed about the atheists stance.
A (colloquial) atheist simply says that s/he doesn't believe in god(s). S/he has no position on objective reality.
A (philosophical) Atheist makes the claim that god(s) don't exist.
A (colloquial) agnostic simply says that s/he doesn't know about god(s). S/he has no position on objective reality.
A (philosophical) Agnostic makes the claim that the existence or nature of god isn't know (by anyone).

By claiming that all atheists have to be Atheists, you commit the fallacy of stawmaning your interlocutor.

Important distinction. Thus there is informal theists, and philosophical Theists as well.

I would apply what I said to philosophical Atheists. And we have a lot of those here. They take on the argument. And arguments are not one way streets.

 

[firedragon]

Here is how I see it. Proof and all these other related words are in a sense not natural like say the word "gravity". Apparently if you remove humans there would be no proof and what not, but gravity would still be there.
So when someone ask for proof, they are in effect themselves using a cognitive belief system and some of those who demand proof believe that it works on all aspects of the everyday world. It doesn't. It is easy to test:

First we need a test of something, which is apparently as the world functions at least for now universal. No human in earth gravity can fly unaided only using their own individual body. Call that test or method proof #1.
Now test if proof #1 applies to all situations. It doesn't because of cognitive, cultural and moral relativism. So when someone asks for proof #1, I only accept it if it is relevant.
It is not relevant for metaphysics, morality, what matters and is useful, and aesthetics. Now some people regardless of religion or not believe that they can use a strong version of proof, that is universal for all humans, when they can't.
That is easy to test, just check if you can believe, behave and act differently.

So I started my personal journey as an adults as an atheist, but I discovered that I couldn't remain non-religious. I believe things about the world for which I have no strong proof and I in effect judge other humans without proof.
That includes all the versions of metaphysics and so on as stated above, so I made the choice to give up on being non-religious. I believe things about the world including metaphysics and the rest for which I don't have proof, evidence, objective reasons, objective rationality and what not as some people believe they do.

In fact there is a subset of non-religious people, who are in effect True Believers like some religious people. They don't understand the limits of human cognition and reasoning and believe they have proof and what not for metaphysics and all the rest. As for this subset they use a variant of empiricism that doesn't hold up. They are absolutists, because they believe in a version of objectivity, that can be falsified simply by being different, but they don't accept that, because they have an absolute and universal methodology of all aspects or some. But what they have in common, is that they all know what the world really is in the strong sense for all or some of these aspects.

So to me, it is not about religion or not. It is about if you accept relativism when it comes to some accepts of the everyday world or you in effect believe that you have the correct objective, rational, true, real, with proof, logic and what not method for all aspects or some aspects of the above: Metaphysics, morality, what matters and is useful, and/or aesthetics.
Are you in the end a subjective relativism or an objective believer in proof and what not?

Regards
Mikkel

I respect your position brother. Its very commendable.

To answer your question, I dont really adhere to these kind of definitions brother. For example, you asked about subjective relativism is reality at an individual level, although an individual would think that's his objective morality. Sociology may have shaped this individuals beliefs but within that framework he will also have very subjective philosophies.

If subjective relativism is imposed by a government then of course that will not fly as any standard. So even those who believe in this are bound by an objective morality at a micro level.

I dont agree with defining things like that brother. I understand that philosophical reasoning is a fantastic field of study but there is too much variance in life that it is almost impossible to define people. I definitely cannot define myself.

I consider myself an extreme Muslim. I am a fundamentalist. Now someone else living in the west who watches TV a lot would think I am a Muslim with a beard carrying a machine gun and a suicide belt simply because I have said those words. Thats the picture he has because of TV. Also, what I mean by fundamentalism is absolutely polar opposite to another persons definition. My extremism is not your idea of extremism. Lets say I am extremely loyal to my wife and will never ever cheat on her. Is that because of my subjective relativism? Well. Maybe. But I do it because of my objective morality derived from the theology.

So this is my extremism. This is my fundamentalism. You may define these things completely differently.

Peace.

 

[rational experiences]

If a human believes I originally came from the same place that my God in science review did. He would be discussing Planet Earth first, a body of stone.

A human would think about that One body and quote, my biology states I am not equal to my science thesis, God the one stone planet.

Yet my biology quotes...I own a stone like bone body/spirit presence within my own living life.

I came from spirit originally. I believe my highest realisations are spiritual and my best and utmost purpose is to be my highest possible human life thinker and follow through with my most best life choices.

So then you would as a human who does not believe in spirit, which is science quote, I do not believe in spirit for I initiate the conversion destruction of the history spirit aware knowledge and wisdom. The inventive science machine energy user.

Therefore if you believed self of a higher spiritual purpose you would preach and teach a theist philosophical reasoning for quoting information about self, being from the same place that God did. Knowing that our planetary entity is stone.

First observation as the one who must prove, the thinker, is quantified once as a HOLY SEE. What I see from my observations, not only of self, my life partner human equal...my babies are born as that same equal to become in my place in my future for my own self. Male adult theist quotations.

Then you would say if I own bone like stone, as a separate spirit form living within my own blood and bio flesh then how did that one body of bone/stone be formed?

Unless the radiation of the stone released God body went within your owned spirit.

So then you would have to quote where did that spirit body, not of stone come from.

And the answer was a use of explained words that quoted, the eternal spirit that had always existed, always will exist just as the eternal, for it has always existed just as the eternal.

To quote a story thesis about how creation came into being, from the eternal release originally for a human spirit to have adapted to owning a spirit of God the body of bones/skeleton self.

Which then is an argument is the pre existence of a spirit self before any creation real....as the explanation the eternal being?

When science, a known biological studier quotes....no human goes anywhere at their death, for their biological body cellular mass goes into instant decomposition from a non oxygenated living oxygen supply activity.

To have spiritual humans argue, but I own a spirit after I am deceased...yet say it from a human life who owns self presence and self egotism also.

I am a spiritual researcher, I always wondered what their discussion of owning a spirit after their life deceased and what they claimed it was personally....quoting it to be a higher form of the human self. To realise it was not any human self. It was the spirit self a one of being, that we were separated physically from and bodily from....so when the human self dies, the eternal part of our spirit still owns self presence.

And it is not human in any form.

For I understood that when we got ground God stone irradiated and also the radiation gases removed burning, was due to cold radiation being vacuum sucked out, but went up into burning alight gases. Which ignited the radiation mass, and as the UFO event it fell back down to the ground and burnt us.

So I understood also we then got water/carbon burnt life removal from the ground water mass. How animal and human images got placed into cloud imagery. We lost our natural water use to be healthy and holy. Lost our brain chemical use in the same incident. Became changed by science false idealisation.

Recording of voice and self image in all human natural living activity. That only owns bio human chemical forms as a blood owned body, being life recorded in their natural day to day human activities and also sexual life. Non stop multiple life and living recordings daily. And then we became possessed with our own imagery.

How it came about to be a phenomena cause due to human nuclear sciences, both historic and also in modern times. To resource or use the natural mass of Earth and alchemize the chemical Nature of its natural substances.

Therefore I can understand why a scientist in a biological review about a human life would quote to a human in reasoning, how could you believe you owned as a human any condition after you died. The reason is because it is not in creation and or is it scientific relative.

Why we argue against you spiritually, as what we believe is an already science proven status. The presence of artificially constant nuclear radiation conditions that forces the unnatural conjuring of what we quantified were evil spirits. If spirit lived and existed constantly using and owning a communicative language originally, then it would by why a machine held constant would conjure the presence of an evil spirit. As common sense.

That identifies that the origin of the higher form of the creative mass originally was existing in a state of its owned spiritual history, that owned a spirit motivation to have its own natural body changed.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I agree with the first part although I don't understand where you are headed with this. About the second part, I have no idea on what you mean by 'ideas of God that are not theistic'. What do you have in mind exactly?



It is interconnected. The concept of God comes from a religious background which is then further elaborated on philosophy.

A deistic philosophical first unmoved mover god has nothing to with a Christian God and says nothing about souls, morality, Heaven, prayer and so on.
This kind of God is a rationalistic attempt to answer where the universe comes from and in a sense could even be considered materialistic.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I respect your position brother. Its very commendable.

...

Peace.

Peace and love
Mikkel

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Give up so easily? Where did you search for the Real Truth?

I have done for over 20 years now using philosophy and science.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and cannot wait to live in a world where all its citizens are God fearing peace makers and lovers of justice.

I am afraid your wait is going to be futile. If God wanted it that way, the violent and corrupt world would not have come about. And peace-makers and lovers of justice need not be God-fearing. Do you fear that Dracula will come and suck your blood, and need a God to save you from that?

 

[Deeje]

I am afraid your wait is going to be futile. If God wanted it that way, the violent and corrupt world would not have come about. And peace-makers and lovers of justice need not be God-fearing. Do you fear that Dracula will come and suck your blood, and need a God to save you from that?

You haven't got the vaguest notion about what God can or cannot do. Why do you bother commenting?
My God is not your god, and I cannot grasp how someone who claims to be religious has no god at all.

Is yours the atheist's religion? Funny, I thought atheists didn't subscribe to religion....?

 

[rational experiences]

You haven't got the vaguest notion about what God can or cannot do. Why do you bother commenting?
My God is not your god, and I cannot grasp how someone who claims to be religious has no god at all.

Is yours the atheist's religion? Funny, I thought atheists didn't subscribe to religion....?

Science as our spiritual human assessment to think about its statements.

A human stands living on a planet named Earth or stone or One or the stone planet and God stone philosophy. The first God.

We live inside of a gas massed atmosphere, mainly water and oxygen microbes, still the same microbes and bacteria natural self o small one forms owning no beginning descriptions. Just exist living inside of a water oxygenated mass atmosphere the same as Nature...trees/wood substance not ours. Animal bio body biology, not the same bio form as a human. All in the exact same living conditions.

The Immaculate 12 hour non burning gas mass...whose cooled gas body supports the spatial vacuum/void condition, that supports gases burning as natural light, the sacrifice of the spirit, meaning gas in science, on the face of water, water evaporation x mass.

Natural heavenly body, not stone.

Yet we all own bones inside of our spirit human life body DNA variable, so is our God skeleton bones, equal only to our God. Aware, human life in conscious spiritual extended human family life, says my brothers and sisters have a DNA life variable, as their life was sacrificed greater than my own.

Yet we all say it.....to reason why.

Little children/babies grow into aware selves. The 2 preceding human being adult parent lives, their parents. Other adult humans lived and died. Life recorded.

DNA reborn in sex, life living memory recordings pre lived, humans talk about knowing detailed information past life.

Past origin of life for all humans, 2 human being parents that biological science Genesis says, both the same DNA history for any human living on Earth today.

So we look at each other, knowing in adult human life at our brothers and sisters and our conscious spiritual self says yes, we all got life sacrificed worse than our brother or sister. We all think the same, as our original parents were the same historically.

Then an argument ensues as to whose country of origin was more ground released irradiated than someone else. How the same stories/themes exist in religious science stories detailing why human DNA holy land Genetics, natural life was first sacrificed. Origin life, beginnings got irradiated sacrificed and why we all live today genetic diverse.

Same story for everyone detailing I am the origin self, worst sacrificed...yet we are all saying it.

A long time ago, each country human being scientific philosopher, life harmed, left his origin country and as the wise man/men he wandered to teach and preach how his countrymen/women life was irradiated and sacrificed. Yet each countries male wise man left his own country to preach it elsewhere.

How they owned an agreement, did it to self in science, why each human God Genetics became changed, our bio life form DNA owns a variable, so does our God stone skeleton of bones, the God self/spirit body within us. Bones like stone.

S ain T....ST one...the theme God philosophy planet Earth...AIN hebrew space zero.

B one. Why it owns a reference teaching about ONE. Bones.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Science as our spiritual human assessment to think about its statements.

A human stands living on a planet named Earth or stone or One or the stone planet and God stone philosophy. The first God.

We live inside of a gas massed atmosphere, mainly water and oxygen microbes, still the same microbes and bacteria natural self o small one forms owning no beginning descriptions. Just exist living inside of a water oxygenated mass atmosphere the same as Nature...trees/wood substance not ours. Animal bio body biology, not the same bio form as a human. All in the exact same living conditions.

The Immaculate 12 hour non burning gas mass...whose cooled gas body supports the spatial vacuum/void condition, that supports gases burning as natural light, the sacrifice of the spirit, meaning gas in science, on the face of water, water evaporation x mass.

Natural heavenly body, not stone.

Yet we all own bones inside of our spirit human life body DNA variable, so is our God skeleton bones, equal only to our God. Aware, human life in conscious spiritual extended human family life, says my brothers and sisters have a DNA life variable, as their life was sacrificed greater than my own.

Yet we all say it.....to reason why.

Little children/babies grow into aware selves. The 2 preceding human being adult parent lives, their parents. Other adult humans lived and died. Life recorded.

DNA reborn in sex, life living memory recordings pre lived, humans talk about knowing detailed information past life.

Past origin of life for all humans, 2 human being parents that biological science Genesis says, both the same DNA history for any human living on Earth today.

So we look at each other, knowing in adult human life at our brothers and sisters and our conscious spiritual self says yes, we all got life sacrificed worse than our brother or sister. We all think the same, as our original parents were the same historically.

Then an argument ensues as to whose country of origin was more ground released irradiated than someone else. How the same stories/themes exist in religious science stories detailing why human DNA holy land Genetics, natural life was first sacrificed. Origin life, beginnings got irradiated sacrificed and why we all live today genetic diverse.

Same story for everyone detailing I am the origin self, worst sacrificed...yet we are all saying it.

A long time ago, each country human being scientific philosopher, life harmed, left his origin country and as the wise man/men he wandered to teach and preach how his countrymen/women life was irradiated and sacrificed. Yet each countries male wise man left his own country to preach it elsewhere.

How they owned an agreement, did it to self in science, why each human God Genetics became changed, our bio life form DNA owns a variable, so does our God stone skeleton of bones, the God self/spirit body within us. Bones like stone.

S ain T....ST one...the theme God philosophy planet Earth...AIN hebrew space zero.

B one. Why it owns a reference teaching about ONE. Bones.

@rational experiences i have read your post 5 times now, and still i have not a clue what you saying
Yes i understand you see everything out of science, but God can not be found by science

 

[rational experiences]

@rational experiences i have read your post 5 times now, and still i have not a clue what you saying
Yes i understand you see everything out of science, but God can not be found by science

What I am saying is that we all quote that God originally came from a spiritual place, before creation existed itself. We also quoted that we came from the same place that God as stone had originally.

We know we are not the body/mass of stone or how stone formed in the cosmos.

What we said was that the pre existing mass of its higher form was eternal before it burst and burnt as a fallen body of God. O angels is the quote in the cosmos...where it came from.

We own a quote that says when I die I still have one higher spirit self. An eternal being. Who is not actually in creation. We were released out of that body. So we were separated, as a portion of the spirit was forced to move into the gas heavenly atmosphere for it had filled back in space. Space the body was what separated the creation from where it fell out....from the eternal.

To prove science wrong, occult science phenomena studies quotes...when a machine uses a constant same applied reaction, an evil spirit emerged. As reasoning, once the spirit O God self was in the eternal and was their spirit language.

How and why an evil spirit can emerge out of the holding of a science language...a formula...non stop same reaction. How an evil spirit is proof that God originally did fall out of the holding in the eternal body.

We tell the story of how we got forced out of the eternal...the atmospheric mass because it was radiating separated our spirit from the eternal spirit.

How spirit all owned pre owned spirit form to be so diverse. If that quote were not real, then how did a skeleton, bones the same as stone matter/mass as radiation fusion become inside of our body? If we had not come out of the eternal as a living spirit already?

We have a full and complete skeleton stone body inside of a blood/bio cell body.

How could you own 2 different bodies of form unless you were a spirit first, and converted into a stone like body, because it passed its stone radiation through your spirit form?

As we know we got converted by the stone as God, then God became our Creator as the One, Earth body. How it was explained. Why we always knew we came from a higher state and owned a karmic cause and effect about change.

Water owns all bio life forms, stone was actually historically unsealed and water owning microbes had to re seal it. How bio bacteria/microbial form was put inside of stone. If that situation were not real, then you would not find insects held inside of amber either. Seeing they live in a water atmospheric body.

 

[Spirit of Light]

What I am saying is that we all quote that God originally came from a spiritual place, before creation existed itself. We also quoted that we came from the same place that God as stone had originally.

We know we are not the body/mass of stone or how stone formed in the cosmos.

What we said was that the pre existing mass of its higher form was eternal before it burst and burnt as a fallen body of God. O angels is the quote in the cosmos...where it came from.

We own a quote that says when I die I still have one higher spirit self. An eternal being. Who is not actually in creation. We were released out of that body. So we were separated, as a portion of the spirit was forced to move into the gas heavenly atmosphere for it had filled back in space. Space the body was what separated the creation from where it fell out....from the eternal.

To prove science wrong, occult science phenomena studies quotes...when a machine uses a constant same applied reaction, an evil spirit emerged. As reasoning, once the spirit O God self was in the eternal and was their spirit language.

How and why an evil spirit can emerge out of the holding of a science language...a formula...non stop same reaction. How an evil spirit is proof that God originally did fall out of the holding in the eternal body.

We tell the story of how we got forced out of the eternal...the atmospheric mass because it was radiating separated our spirit from the eternal spirit.

How spirit all owned pre owned spirit form to be so diverse. If that quote were not real, then how did a skeleton, bones the same as stone matter/mass as radiation fusion become inside of our body? If we had not come out of the eternal as a living spirit already?

We have a full and complete skeleton stone body inside of a blood/bio cell body.

How could you own 2 different bodies of form unless you were a spirit first, and converted into a stone like body, because it passed its stone radiation through your spirit form?

As we know we got converted by the stone as God, then God became our Creator as the One, Earth body. How it was explained. Why we always knew we came from a higher state and owned a karmic cause and effect about change.

Water owns all bio life forms, stone was actually historically unsealed and water owning microbes had to re seal it. How bio bacteria/microbial form was put inside of stone. If that situation were not real, then you would not find insects held inside of amber either. Seeing they live in a water atmospheric body.

Thank you, now i underyou better

 

[ChristineM]

I know that you will not understand, but it is necessary because of what is going to happen in the future.

From our perspective, we see ourselves as something akin to emergency service workers who go house to house warning of an impending disaster. You don't have to believe in it for the disaster to be real....just look at all the covid disbelievers who want to the freedom to be infected and to infect others because they don't think it really exists.

People who have contracted the virus or who have lost loved ones can warn them, but unless they believe that the threat is real, the warning will have no effect. Does that mean they should stop warning them?

Receiving the warning puts the onus on the unbeliever because he/she can never claim ignorance.....because it was his/her choice to ignore the warning.

We believe that we are delivering a message from God (I know you don't believe that).....but this is a God who says he is going to cleanse this earth of all the ignorant, greedy idiots who are destroying it. We can see them doing it, but if we vote them into office or support their political agendas, we put ourselves in their camp and come under the same judgment. So our message is to show people how to put themselves on God's side rather than on the side of his enemies.

We do understand that our message gets up the noses of some, but we keep trying in the hope that while there is still time...there is hope for change. We have seen it happen many times. I myself used to buzz off JW's at my door. But something changed in my life that made me want answers....and the church I was attending had none.

If people don't want us to call, they can just request us not to call again and we will honor their request.
In these covid times, we aren't calling personally at the moment anyway, but we write letters and call people on the phone to offer some encouragement because these times are hard for those in confinement. They need some good news, and we believe that we have the best news possible.....a new government for this earth that will rule all the people with genuine love, and care for all their needs. A government that will dispatch all the wicked ones and leave behind those who want what God is offering. If you don't want that, then God will not force you to live there.
Isn't that fair enough?

I did not read it all, i got as far as the clairvoyance bit and decided against the struggle.