Who is to Blame?

[epronovost]

and realizing this...

you could be saved

There's only three problems though. The first one depends on your interpretation of those scriptures. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is described as the one unforgiveable sin. The one for which you can't ask forgiveness and should expect none.

Second, I don't believe in it at all. I consider the entirety of chirstian mythology to be preposterous and rather cheap moral advices when they aren't categoricaly repulsive. (that's the part where I am very blasphemous BTW)

The third one, is that even if those scriptures were to be triumphally true, I don't think I would want to be "saved" in the first place.

 

[74x12]

If any of this is true, I am destined for an eternity of torment.

But ... if you repent it doesn't matter. Your past is erased.

 

[epronovost]

But ... if you repent it doesn't matter. Your past is erased.

As I pointed out before, blasphemy against the holy spirit is often understood as the unforgiveable sin. No repent possible in that case. Then of course there are all the other issues I mentionned in my last post.

 

[74x12]

As I pointed out before, blasphemy against the holy spirit is often understood as the unforgiveable sin. No repent possible in that case. Then of course there are all the other issues I mentionned in my last post.

No, you really didn't do the unforgivable sin.
How can you truly blaspheme what you don't believe in?

As for your other issues ... they aren't insurmountable. I can see how it's easy to write the Bible off as bronze age mythos and the story of Jesus even harder to believe for some people. But, once you experience things for yourself you quickly realize it's all true. Personal experience trumps nearly everything else; because there are not going to be any signs or miracles for the whole world to believe. Not until right before the end.

As for not wanting to be saved. If God didn't change people's hearts then no one could be saved anyway. According to the scriptures every one has turned away from God and everyone's hearts are at enmity with God already. That's why God has to change people's heart. In point of fact; it's never the case that anyone seeks God or that anyone loves God. It's always that God seeks people because God loves them.

As for all the arguments about how this or that thing which God did was supposedly "evil". Those arguments are all nonsense from Satan to make sure people never trust in God.

But once people know God and really walk with God; then they know it's nonsense because they know God. So they know God isn't evil.

That's all according to my belief and experience.

 

[Skwim]

I would spell them out, but it would be better for you to see for yourself. It shouldn't take but a few hours of internet research to see that what I said is true.

Okay, so you can't find the Greek philosophies and Egyptian myths that formed doctrines precipitating the atrocities. Then just show us the
connection between the doctrine of the trinity and the notion of an immortal soul with atrocities. That should be a cinch.

.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

I look at it a little differently.
When humans cede their requirement to take personal responsibility for things, the outcomes tend to be horrendous.
So, whether it is religion (Crusades), politics (Communism/Nazism) or socio-economic (Rwandan attrocities) things act as a rallying cry, and we form a mob. Rather than taking personal responsibility for my actions, I am now (commonly) acting as the mob requires. The rules of the mob, and the theoretical dogma overtakes my own ideas about treating others as I would be treated.

Throw in some dehumanizing propoganda...whether it be against heathens, socialists, Jews or Tutsis...and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[ChristineM]

The OP was about Christians who were not around in the OT. But I'll gladly detour for a moment.

You are so right about making excuses for one's faith. It is much easier to do that than have genuine understanding about any intellectual pursuit. That takes work!

I almost hate to say it, but I noticed that you just decided it doesn't matter, instead of honestly looking into the matter with an open mind. Practically speaking, that is no different than making excuses. I don't mean to attack you, but it did strike me as pertinent.

Whether or not one takes the Bible as truth or a fairy tale does not take away the fact that it is a literary work. Like any story, it has characters, a plot, a theme, etc. One thing is certain, a good story must follow a logical course of action. Again, this applies to fairy tales as well as "A Tale of Two Cities." For any literature to stand the test of time, the author must ensure there is a logical story line. That means everything he writes does matter. If nothing mattered there would be no story. So, you see, the things that did happen in the OT matter greatly.

Besides, what you call excuses is actually a knowledge arrived at by a thorough research of the matter at hand. Anybody with a willing mind can learn why the things that happened in the OT happened. Excuses are not required to explain God's plan. It explains itself in the scriptures.

OK. I'm done with this OT stuff. Of course I'll read any reply you may have, but I am still looking for answers to the OP? The essence of the question is, is history filled with heinous atrocities promoted by genuine Christians or by Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology? We (not everybody of course) claim to be governed by "Judaeo Christian" ethics. I'm claiming that we are in fact governed by the ethical system spawned by decidedly non-Christian doctrine.

Christians have tried to kill me and my children, how much open mind do i need?

I have Christian friends, some people of whom are very devout. I know many other christians and to my knowledge every single one of them was taught from both the OT and NT.

Simply dismissing the OT as not christian seems to me to be something of a cop out.

And you claim research? Is that valid, peer reviewed research or reading the bible with an apologetic viewpoint?

As far as i am aware the OT, certainly the earlier books were written before any meaningful contact with Greece.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

As you said, they may well have used the OT as justification. However, it is worth noting that there is nothing in the Book of Acts (the history of the early church) that would indicate that the Christians of that time exhibited anything but genuine love for all people. There is no record whatsoever of the first century Christians committing any heinous acts.

The first century church shared little with the beliefs of the established religions of their time. Those religions were decidedly Greek, Roman, and Egyptian in character. But little by little, the new converts naturally brought with them their world view shaped by those Pagan religions. By the time the atrocities began in earnest, Christianity bore but slight resemblance to that of the first century. That is where we are today. Many of the key doctrines held by Christians can be traced to extra-scriptural sources, notably the aforementioned religions. Scripture was abandoned for religion.

Had the new converts clung to the truth as laid out by the early Apostles, the world would be a much different place. The inquisition would never have occurred. That is why I believe the blame for those atrocities (and many others) should be laid on the shoulders of Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology. We are a society completely shaped by those ideals and that shaping has taken place over a course of some 2,000 years.

I see where you are coming from: the Christianity that committed atrocities is a different Christianity from the original source.

Would Christianity have spread as much as it did without adapting certain aspects of ither cultures? I would suggest that had it, even that form of Christianity could have been capable of committing atrocities due to the penchant of humans towards such things.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

Good point--Jesus is not to blame. Savior!

 

[epronovost]

Good point--Jesus is not to blame. Savior!

If there was such a man, he indeed can only be blamed for the weaknesses of his doctrine as well as his own moral failings, but not more.

 

[stvdv]

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

If I blame anyone, I blame God. For He created the world with so many mean Christians on top of it.

I can't blame the poor Christians for being so mean, like belittling other (non) faith etc. etc thereby creating war themselves, can I?

We should never hold Christians responsible for their bad behavior, because Jesus died for their sins (past+future), or might that maybe not completely true?
(I mean, it sounds too good to be true almost, I think).

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

Aha, I see you came also to this conclusion. Never blame Christians, as Jesus told us to judge always others, because He died for Christian's sins (at least that's the vibe I always get from Christians, also in this OP)

God gave Christians (allegedly) Card Blanche.

Lucky them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Throughout history there have been an untold number of atrocities supposedly committed by those who hold to the scriptures (Bible). Christianity is considered by many to be the worse thing that could have ever existed. But is Christianity really to blame?

Since the end of the first century Christianity is much more aligned with Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology than with the Bible. The trinity, immortal soul, eternity in the ether, are but a few of the doctrines held by Orthodox Christianity. But these doctrines come straight out of the Greek and Egyptian cultures and have no direct evidence in the scriptures themselves.

Would it not therefore be more appropriate to blame Greek philosophy and Egyptian mythology for the above mentioned atrocities? Can you imagine Jesus being party to the inquisition?

You speak truly. Jesus taught love, peace, forgiveness and good character. To follow Jesus means to be loving, peaceful and kind. Anyone can say “ I am a believer’ but a true follower shall be known by his deeds not his words.

 

[rrobs]

I see where you are coming from: the Christianity that committed atrocities is a different Christianity from the original source.

Would Christianity have spread as much as it did without adapting certain aspects of ither cultures? I would suggest that had it, even that form of Christianity could have been capable of committing atrocities due to the penchant of humans towards such things.

It certainly appears, as you said, that humans have a penchant for mistreating each other. Dogs bark, cats meow, cows moo, and humans fight. In all these cases it's the nature of the beast. According to the scriptures, it will stay that way until Christ returns and sets up his everlasting kingdom. Then the problem will be solved.

 

[rrobs]

I would blame those other religions for atrocities committed in their name. I would blame Christianity for those atrocities committed in it's name.

There are many verses in the scriptures that exhort Christians to be kind to all people. That is the message of Christianity. Obviously there is a lack of follow through.

Matt 7:21,

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
​

Nothing wrong with Christianity. It's people who cause the problem. Too many say one thing and do another.

 

[rrobs]

so.....with exclusions of your post noted.....

Jesus is where?

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

and if you want to be ...'there'
with Him
will He not inquire...BEFORE He allows you to stay
WHAT do you believe?
WHO told you that?
WHY?.....did you believe it

Having shown that Jesus is in me, it follows that these questions are irrelevant. I'm not with Jesus. He is with me. Furthermore, there is no evidence in the scriptures that he will ever leave me.

Eph 4:30,

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
​

The Greek (language of older manuscripts) word "Sealed" is "sphragizo" which means, "to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation." That all happened when I confessed Jesus as my lord and believed God raised him from the dead.

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
​

After that it's a done deal. I am indeed sealed with Christ until he returns again to gather me together to be with him for ever.

1Thess 4:17,

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

 

[rrobs]

The only people to blame are those that cling to ancient religions and worldviews in the contemporary world. Ancient religions were anchored in the ancient cultures of the past, and remain narrowly oriented today. Christianity became progressively influenced by Hellenist and Roman influence beginning with Paul progressed after ~100 AD, and reflects the culture, which is no longer relevant in a universal perspective of the contemporary world.

First of all, There are many times where Paul explicitly warned against getting tangled up with the Greek and Roman religious influence. I'm not sure why you think he advanced the idea.

Our culture is absolutely influenced by the Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans. We are largely products of Plato's ideas. The events of their day demonstrate a decided lack of value for human life. The idea certainly didn't come out of the NT scriptures. Much of the NT specifically warns the believer to avoid the doctrine of these cultures.

 

[rrobs]

Okay, so you can't find the Greek philosophies and Egyptian myths that formed doctrines precipitating the atrocities.

I can't?

Then just show us the
connection between the doctrine of the trinity and the notion of an immortal soul with atrocities. That should be a cinch..

Jesus is said to have existed from the beginning of time. Never mind the scriptures speak of the beginning of Jesus as having occurred when he was born to Joseph and Mary. According to the scriptures, birth is the beginning of life. Duh!

It is the immortality of the soul which enables the trinitarians to claim Jesus existed before he was actually born. Because of that they claim Jesus is therefore God Himself. Making Jesus God distorts the scriptures to the point where the make no sense. After all, Jesus and God are the two main characters. By so grossly characterizing Jesus as God the makes the actual story all but impossible to decipher.

Summary: immortal soul led to Jesus, a human, becoming God which screwed up the doctrine to the point of being FUBAR. Therefore, those who committed the atrocities, while calling themselves Christians, really have no idea of what Christianity really is.

We really don't know how the world would be if everybody actually followed the teachings of Jesus. I would bet it would be better than it is now. I think it fair to say Jesus was not onboard with the inquisition. Our culture is, and has been, a product of Greek and Roman thought, not that of the scriptures. That should help explain that which you said I can't explain. Hope so anyway.

Take care.

 

[rrobs]

I look at it a little differently.
When humans cede their requirement to take personal responsibility for things, the outcomes tend to be horrendous.
So, whether it is religion (Crusades), politics (Communism/Nazism) or socio-economic (Rwandan attrocities) things act as a rallying cry, and we form a mob. Rather than taking personal responsibility for my actions, I am now (commonly) acting as the mob requires. The rules of the mob, and the theoretical dogma overtakes my own ideas about treating others as I would be treated.

Throw in some dehumanizing propoganda...whether it be against heathens, socialists, Jews or Tutsis...and you have a recipe for disaster.

You are right about what you said. However, the actions of people are largely influenced by the culture in which they live. Throughout history, Western culture has been way more influenced by the Greek/Roman/Egyptian religious ideas than that of the scriptures. I think it fairly obvious that the Greeks and Romans, on the whole, had little value for human life. We are, and have been, way more like them than like Jesus.

 

[rrobs]

Christians have tried to kill me and my children, how much open mind do i need?

I'm sorry to hear you and your children were so grossly mistreated. It sounds like a hellish ordeal. Perhaps the "Christians" who tried to kill you and your children were wolves in sheep clothing. I guarantee that had I been around then I would have had something to say to those who did that.

I have Christian friends, some people of whom are very devout. I know many other christians and to my knowledge every single one of them was taught from both the OT and NT

No problem there as far as it goes. But there is a huge problem when they don't understand the proper place of the two testaments. Testaments are contracts between specific parties. If one is not a party to a contract, the things in that contract have no bearing on them whatsoever.

Simply dismissing the OT as not christian seems to me to be something of a cop out.

I think it a cop out to make Christianity a part of the OT. Christianity didn't begin until the day of Pentecost. This is part of the problem I mentioned above about people not making the proper distinction between the two testaments. I'm not party to Tom Brady's multi-million dollar contract with the New England Patriots. That's why I'm not filthy rich. How stupid would it be if I went out and charged up my credit cards to the max and beyond because I thought I was party to Tom's contract?

The OT was certainly valid between God and Israel in the days before Jesus, but things changed rather radically when Jesus died and rose from the dead. The Christian contract with God is much different that that between Him and Israel. This is just basic lawyer stuff.

And you claim research? Is that valid, peer reviewed research or reading the bible with an apologetic viewpoint?

Of course I share what I learn with peers and we talk about it.

As far as i am aware the OT, certainly the earlier books were written before any meaningful contact with Greece.

You are absolutely correct. Greek philosophy had no influence on the Jews of the OT. However that doesn't negate the fact that they did have a huge influence on early Christian thought.

Take care.[/QUOTE]

 

[Thief]

these questions are irrelevant. I'm not with Jesus. He is with me.

not that I cherry pick quotations as a practice.....however

the questions I posed....I believe ARE relevant
and pending in that day of reckoning


as for proximity (or relationship)
you are with each other.....or not