Who killed all those babies?

[WanderingSoul]

If that is you is your take you are welcome to it. But, no where in my bible does it say he knows the future. I can say with an easy heart this crime is not of the hand of god. You have offered me no proof.

The bedrock of Christianity is that the coming of Christ was foretold by the prophets of old. Are you saying that they knew better than God Himself what God was going to do? I dusted off my old concordance and then looked up "future." There are so many references to God's future actions in scripture that it would take 2 hours to copy and paste them all here. Either the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God, or it isn't; either it is true, or it is false.

Perhaps God has to read the "Word of God" to know what God is going to do? Is that what you are saying? We humans might know better than God, what God is going to do? Nuts!

 

[WanderingSoul]

I think it's definitely one worth bringing up. However, the only answer that I can give is I don't know. If a God separate from the universe exists (which, while I don't believe in, is what the Bible teaches), I won't pretend to know His/Her/It's mind.

I appreciate your honesty. :yes:

This whole baby genocide thing is just one of countless inconsistencies in Christian theology that--to me--renders that faith as a slander against God, and an affront to reason.

 

[BigRed]

True, those babies were unjustly murdered by the hand of man, with God's foreknowledge and blessing. Like I said, those babies died because God's "savior" was born. I feel that God then is morally responsible for their deaths, because he knew and allowed it, and so CAUSED their death. Just like if you know that an action by you would result in the death of another, yet you do nothing, you probably are legally and morally responsible. How much more then should God be held responsible for the death of those babies, with him being so smart and all.

What does omnisicent and omnipotent mean?

Oh, C'mon, are you going to bog this discussion with questions like that? There are plenty of passages that qualify those terms, right there in the bible and independent of any secular definition. If I thought it were imperative to the discussion, I would take the time to look them up; but really, I see no need. If you can't concede the point, then I'm not sure our discussion would bear any fruit anyway.

God is a baby killer.
Psalm 21:10 (New American Standard Bible)


10Their offspring You will destroy from the earth,
And their descendants from among the sons of men.

Psalm 137:9 (New American Standard Bible)


9How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
Against the rock.

Isaiah 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)


16Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces
Before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.

BigRed

 

[WanderingSoul]

And you cannot get God's perpective from that?

Tell me, Sandy, what is YOUR perspective of God, based on your knowledge of the Bible? Do you believe God's perspective to be that of a fickle, tyrannical, murdering, bloodthirsty God that did not possess the intelligence & wisdom to know how to be born into the world without also causing a baby genocide? If so, then you and I are in agreement.

I have to ask, do you have no compunction in your faith in such a God? Really, I'm asking.

 

[outhouse]

I notice you said, "All WE know about Jesus..." I'm curious to know who you were talking for. At the other end of the spectrum are those who believe Jesus was a revelation of God, for the salvation of mankind from their sinful depravation. I wish someone who held that belief could answer my question; that is, why did the Christian God feel it necessary to cause a baby genocide, just so his "savior" could be born?

Im talking about historians, just look at historical jesus wiki for more info.

no one caused baby genocide, a natural disaster happened of some sort and the story grew around that.

remember there are no eye witnesses to any of the events, there old wives tales told for centurys in some cases before the unknow authors wrote them down and then later changed and edited to meet the churches needs. [dogma added]

If one understands the real history of the time AND one undrstands the cultures of hat time then you canget a picture that the OT was written as tall tales to be read allegorically.

 

[WanderingSoul]

God is a baby killer.
Psalm 21:10 (New American Standard Bible)


10Their offspring You will destroy from the earth,
And their descendants from among the sons of men.

Psalm 137:9 (New American Standard Bible)


9How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
Against the rock.

Isaiah 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)


16Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces
Before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.

BigRed

I can only infer from your posting of these verses that you want to establish the God of the Bible as a killer. I would be the last to argue with you on that.

But you never really addressed my questions. To rephrase:

So, is the baby genocide a fiction? and if it is, then doesn't that call into question the veracity of all the NT?

Or is the genocide true? and if it is, then does that mean God is responsible for the death of those babies?

Finally, could the Christian God's salvation through Christ still be true, even if the same God caused the baby genocide?

 

[WanderingSoul]

Im talking about historians, just look at historical jesus wiki for more info.

no one caused baby genocide, a natural disaster happened of some sort and the story grew around that.

remember there are no eye witnesses to any of the events, there old wives tales told for centurys in some cases before the unknow authors wrote them down and then later changed and edited to meet the churches needs. [dogma added]

If one understands the real history of the time AND one undrstands the cultures of hat time then you canget a picture that the OT was written as tall tales to be read allegorically.

I have no problem with your secular POV. However, your view doesn't square with Christian theology. Millions--no Billions--believe that God is offering salvation via faith in Christ. Gosh, I sure would hate to miss out on that if it's true. But the NT makes clear to me that God caused a baby massacre, and for no good reason; after all he's GOD! I can't help but be skeptical when a Christian tells me, just trust in Jesus, when that same Jesus negligently caused a baby genocide. How can I believe God & Jesus can save my soul in eternity, when they themselves couldn't even engineer a safe birth in a manger?

 

[outhouse]

So, is the baby genocide a fiction?

yes

then doesn't that call into question the veracity of all the NT?

yes, the NT has never been historically accurate it cannot be. It was written by many unknown authors none of which were eye witnesses after being told orally for decades before being written down.

Or is the genocide true?

could be but doughtfull.

God is responsible for the death of those babies?

god is not responsible

God caused the baby genocide?

no god dididnt kill anything ever in my opinion.

 

[reve]

There is a long history of sacrificing your children in that part of the world regardless of your religion. Abraham was sacrificing his son. As quoted above babies were tossed on a fire to Baal but for centuries there was a bonfire at the top of a hill in Jerusalem and 'children were set aside' for this, the God Moloch (check him out on a search engine). In fact at any sign of trouble in Aztec land people were sacrificed. The Celts did it, Satanists said to do it. So if you say God does not want it which God are you referring to? Most do. Jeremiah and Isaiah were nice. Isaiah said his god thought the sacrificing a bull was as bad as the death of a man. Moses killed the entire population of Moab. 'Set aside' it says which is what they did with the babies thrown into Moloch's furnace. It is all hateful. Christian Communion uses wine not blood but the religion always taught that it really was blood and has burned many men women and children who dared to protest that it was really wine. Some gods like Bacchus and Osiris prefer alcohol and bread. Or milk and honey. Jesus comes from an area where you sacrificed you son and that it is the moral - it is done to benefit us. In fact the religion came from Egypt where they had once sacrificed their kings to increase fertility, then substituted someone elese for the sacrifice as any sensible king would. One of his 100 sons probably. In Exodus the first born one. Cain offered vegetables to his God and they were rejected. That God wanted sheep from Abel's flock. Not nice magic. He also settled for a ram rather than the boy Isaac. But a village full of Moabites seemed to be even better. Not a God that is very nice in my view. Perhaps Cainites should keep their heads down for a while.

 

[WanderingSoul]

yes



yes, the NT has never been historically accurate it cannot be. It was written by many unknown authors none of which were eye witnesses after being told orally for decades before being written down.



could be but doughtfull.



god is not responsible



no god dididnt kill anything ever in my opinion.

Thanks, that's good to hear.

It would be difficult for me to imagine the true God snuffing out a bunch of babies, especially if it wasn't necessary; just one of many reasons why I reject the Christian God and Jesus as the product of lies, half-truths, and bad history.

I'm still waiting for a true believer in Christ to provide me with a good explanation as to why God would do such a thing, kill all those babies, that is. Who knows, maybe there is a smarty-pants out there that can make it clear for me; but really, I doubt it.

How sad, I was hoping Jesus could save me from my sinful mistakes. I guess I'm doomed.:help:

 

[WanderingSoul]

There is a long history of sacrificing your children in that part of the world regardless of your religion. Abraham was sacrificing his son. As quoted above babies were tossed on a fire to Baal but for centuries there was a bonfire at the top of a hill in Jerusalem and 'children were set aside' for this, the God Moloch (check him out on a search engine). In fact at any sign of trouble in Aztec land people were sacrificed. The Celts did it, Satanists said to do it. So if you say God does not want it which God are you referring to? Most do. Jeremiah and Isaiah were nice. Isaiah said his god thought the sacrificing a bull was as bad as the death of a man. Moses killed the entire population of Moab. 'Set aside' it says which is what they did with the babies thrown into Moloch's furnace. It is all hateful. Christian Communion uses wine not blood but the religion always taught that it really was blood and has burned many men women and children who dared to protest that it was really wine. Some gods like Bacchus and Osiris prefer alcohol and bread. Or milk and honey. Jesus comes from an area where you sacrificed you son and that it is the moral - it is done to benefit us. In fact the religion came from Egypt where they had once sacrificed their kings to increase fertility, then substituted someone elese for the sacrifice as any sensible king would. One of his 100 sons probably. In Exodus the first born one. Cain offered vegetables to his God and they were rejected. That God wanted sheep from Abel's flock. Not nice magic. He also settled for a ram rather than the boy Isaac. But a village full of Moabites seemed to be even better. Not a God that is very nice in my view. Perhaps Cainites should keep their heads down for a while.

Which God am I referring to?

I'm referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the same God who created a new covenant with humanity through Christ, according to the Bible and Christian theology. That God.

So what are you saying here? that because humanity's sense of morality and love for children may have been less than what it is today, that God had no compunction about killing those babies? I want to understand why God's plan of salvation in Christ necessitated a baby genocide. Cripes, if the Christian God had merely closed his eyes and poked the calendar, he could have done better. How many human births do you know that cause a baby genocide? Not many, if at all. According to the word of God, God knows all, and can do all; yet he couldn't even do what billions have babies have done without hindrance: Be born.

Amazing.

I hate the God of the Bible. He's vindictive, murderous, unfaithful, childish, and really quite stupid at times. I want to find a new God. Anyone got one for sale?

 

[jojo50]

Jehovah does whatever he does, for a reason. sometimes we may not understand,sometimes it doesn't seem fair. but you can best believe many times it's the grown ups that cause the deaths of many babies/children. think about it....God know's babies haven't committed any sins. at least not old enough to even know what sin means. so if he allows babies to even die,it wasn't because of something they did. think about the flood,those babies didn't die because God hated them. they had to die because their disobedient parents resue to do right. many God didn't want any ophans. it may seem mean,but i can understand that. if those parents were doing right,the babies wouldn't have to die. also who's to say God let those babies suffer? i don't know, but i do know there was a reason why he did what he did.peace!

 

[Riverwolf]

I appreciate your honesty. :yes:

This whole baby genocide thing is just one of countless inconsistencies in Christian theology that--to me--renders that faith as a slander against God, and an affront to reason.

Of course, you could argue that maybe God had some reason he had to, or maybe those babies were born again, or something. But, at the same time, you'd think He'd be kind enough to let us know about it.

At least in the Mahabharata, the infanticide is explained.

 

[WanderingSoul]

Jehovah does whatever he does, for a reason. sometimes we may not understand,sometimes it doesn't seem fair. but you can best believe many times it's the grown ups that cause the deaths of many babies/children. think about it....God know's babies haven't committed any sins. at least not old enough to even know what sin means. so if he allows babies to even die,it wasn't because of something they did. think about the flood,those babies didn't die because God hated them. they had to die because their disobedient parents resue to do right. many God didn't want any ophans. it may seem mean,but i can understand that. if those parents were doing right,the babies wouldn't have to die. also who's to say God let those babies suffer? i don't know, but i do know there was a reason why he did what he did.peace!

That strikes me as a heartfelt answer, and I appreciate it.

Look, I have no doubt that there would be many things that God might do that I don't understand, that's clear. But if God's mysterious ways include committing murder, then how can I trust such a God? If God's ways contradict humanity's understanding of justice and morality then what are we to do? And it's not just that baby thing, it's the sacrifice thing too. Am to believe that God demanded the death of an innocent man for the crimes of others? That demand violates basic morality; that is, to make an innocent man pay for the crimes of another. Morality demands that those that commit the crime, take the punishment; that's the basis for morality.

Can you imagine if I told you, "I killed my niece today on a cross; but the good news is, I forgive you for stealing my lawn mower!"

Does that sound like justice and morality to you? Yet, that basically is what Christianity is founded upon.

Who is this God who kills babies for no apparent reason, and demands the innocent suffer for the crimes of others? Moreover, can I trust such a God and His promise of salvation?

 

[WanderingSoul]

Of course, you could argue that maybe God had some reason he had to, or maybe those babies were born again, or something. But, at the same time, you'd think He'd be kind enough to let us know about it.

At least in the Mahabharata, the infanticide is explained.

Yeah, right, exactly.

Christ had to shed his blood on a cross before we could be forgiven for our sins. Apparently so did all those babies have to die for our sins, for their death was a consequence of Jesus' birth. Jesus flits about Judea speaking of love, forgiveness and his love of children. Yet not one word is spoken of those babies that had to die so he could be born. Christians owe their salvation as much to those babies as to Jesus, I say.

If I were a Christian, I would have to seriously question the promise of salvation by a God that would dare display such ineptitude and crassness toward human life.

 

[outhouse]

that basically is what Christianity is founded upon.

that is just the tip of the iceberg really.

i mean yeesh god murders every inoccent man, women, child, animal, fish and birds if you believe. mainly because he feels he made a mistake and wants to try again and put his best foot foward this time. in my opinion

goes along with the pagan burning of animal sacrifices as well.

 

[WanderingSoul]

that is just the tip of the iceberg really.

i mean yeesh god murders every inoccent man, women, child, animal, fish and birds if you believe. mainly because he feels he made a mistake and wants to try again and put his best foot foward this time. in my opinion

goes along with the pagan burning of animal sacrifices as well.

LOL:yes:

Why is it, that those of us who value, and strive for, rational thinking are made out to be the bad guys in the religious debate; as if reasonable thought were a crime, or something. Many Christians I talk to act like I'm trying to steal their Jesus, or something, when I dare to point out the inconsistencies in their religion. They want to lead me to the light of God with their dangerous fable. I want to lead them to God with the light of reason. How many souls in history have suffered and died for this thing called Christianity? Too many to count. I'll quickly add, I'm no great thinker with this thing; but, good lord, in light of what I hear sometimes, I feel like a genius with a duty to help.

 

[diosangpastol]

i was just thinking....Just incase we remove the religion... who are we going to blame for all of this ? Just incase Jesus or Christianity never occur ... who are you going to blame guys ?

 

[openyourmind]

LOL:yes:

Why is it, that those of us who value, and strive for, rational thinking are made out to be the bad guys in the religious debate; as if reasonable thought were a crime, or something. Many Christians I talk to act like I'm trying to steal their Jesus, or something, when I dare to point out the inconsistencies in their religion. They want to lead me to the light of God with their dangerous fable. I want to lead them to God with the light of reason. How many souls in history have suffered and died for this thing called Christianity? Too many to count. I'll quickly add, I'm no great thinker with this thing; but, good lord, in light of what I hear sometimes, I feel like a genius with a duty to help.

It's because you are not challenging thier faith. You are challenging god. God is put before us and does no wrong and only loves. You have read the bible and speak of crimes and blame god. When in reality it is man that has done wrong. If you challenge them and ask them how they follow a religion that has killed innocent people in the name of the lord, you may get a different reaction. I know there will still be those that believe it is justified. Not sure how you can kill for blasphemy or with craft or the christian crusades......sry got distracted. It is hard to find faith when you look in to a religion that has used the word to do harm!

 

[WanderingSoul]

i was just thinking....Just incase we remove the religion... who are we going to blame for all of this ? Just incase Jesus or Christianity never occur ... who are you going to blame guys ?

I'm only looking at God's apparent immoral behavior within the Christian context. It was not my intention in this thread to wonder who I would blame in the absence of Christianity.

God came into the world to "save" us, but he had to kill a bunch of babies to do so; and I find that rather contradictory for an all-knowing, all-seeing God, who loves humanity so much he is willing to kill himself on a cross.