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Who knows about the "Taung child" fossil?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
None of this has any relevance to my post.
The article was cited by someone else. I found a few quotes interesting.

You don't know what evidently, because your citations are not only irrelevant but incoherent to anything in my post.

"Citing deficiencies in how the Taung fossil material has been recently assessed..."
"The authors also debate the previously offered theoretical basis for this adaptation..."
That's very interesting.


How is anything you said relevant to that?
Explain please.

Also, you did not answer my question... again.
You just make sweeping claims... again
Are you saying that all scientists agree with you on this, and do "not question the taxonomy of the Australopithecus africanus, nor the evolution of the hominin over millions of years."?
Can you please provide the data verifying that claim?


From experience, I don't expect you can support your claim. That would not prevent you from continuing to make them though.
So I don't expect you to answer the question. Your unsupported claims will just keep coming.

View attachment 52613

@YoursTrue
I am reading this article - quite interesting. .. quite long. :)
Maybe, some of its contents may interest you.

Here is an excerpt...
For a century, every fossil discovery that could potentially be taken as evidence of an evolutionary connection between human beings and some “lower form” had precipitated a large number of mutually contradictory interpretations from ostensibly authoritative voices, often wildly divergent in their assessments of the fossil’s significance. More often than not, and certainly more often than Clark took to be the norm in most scientific fields, this proliferation of views had descended into “controversies of a polemical nature.
Scientists, being human, were liable to have very personal reactions to evidence concerning human origins, and the interpolation of such personal feelings into the assessment of fossil evidence led to a loss of objectivity and the propagation of as many interpretations as there were persons to do the interpreting. The personal, emotionally charged connection that investigators felt towards their own interpretations tended to inhibit their ability to dispassionately consider other possibilities, and often resulted in the undue use of polemical language. Disputants often claimed to be dispassionate in their respective assessments of the evidence, Clark pointed out, but their raucous dissensus gave them the lie.

Here is what I learned...
Raymond Dart, a professor in anatomy made the claim that "Australopithecus africanus" was an evolutionary ancestor of human beings, linking our species to a distant past in which our anatomical similarity to the apes was much more conspicuous.
More fossils were found with similar resemblance, which were dubbed Australopithecines. Debates over these fossils continued from then until now. With some considering these fossils to be nothing more than "another type of ape".
Such debates also related to the change to the “Modern Synthesis” or “Neo-Darwinian Synthesis”.

Tom Gundling, a biological anthropologist, "argues that the reinterpretation of early human fossils came about at last because of changes in theoretical approach, not simply because new and more complete fossils had been recovered".
He is said to be agree that the crucial factor in making the Australopithecines acceptable human ancestors in the eyes of many scientists was a broad shift in the dominant understanding of evolutionary theory in the nineteen thirties and forties.

Shifts away from experience or practice to theory no doubt, have left some scientists "on the other side"... and led to more debates.
The Extended (Evolutionary) Synthesis Debate: Where Science Meets Philosophy
Abstract
Recent debates between proponents of the modern evolutionary synthesis (the standard model in evolutionary biology) and those of a possible extended synthesis are a good example of the fascinating tangle among empirical, theoretical, and conceptual or philosophical matters that is the practice of evolutionary biology. In this essay, we briefly discuss two case studies from this debate, highlighting the relevance of philosophical thinking to evolutionary biologists in the hope of spurring further constructive cross-pollination between the two fields.

The sort of vigorous debate briefly sketched above is, we suggest, both typical of many areas of biology (including discussions on species concepts and on a number of ecological theories) and an excellent example of a dialogue at the interface of empirical biology, theoretical biology, and philosophy of biology. These are issues that can be settled decisively neither on empirical grounds (it is hard to imagine what sort of evidence, on its own, could possibly do that) nor even on a theoretical (as opposed to a broader conceptual) level—say, framed in the kind of mathematical terms that are the bread and butter of population genetic theory. The reason for this is that some of the crucial issues are conceptual (i.e., philosophical) in nature and hinge on not just matters of definition (what, exactly, counts as a paradigm?) but also on the entire framework that biologists use to understand what it is that they are doing (e.g., what is the relationship between systems of inheritance and natural selection, or, in multilevel selection theory, what counts as a level and why?). Kuhn (1962) famously referred to this as the “disciplinary matrix” characterizing a given field of inquiry.

Is a New and General Theory of Evolution Emerging?
Abstract
The “modern synthetic” view of evolution has broken down, at least as an exclusive proposition, on both of its fundamental claims: (1) “extrapolationism” (gradual substitution of different alleles in many genes as the exclusive process underlying all evolutionary change) and (2) nearly exclusive reliance on selection leading to adaptation. Evolution is a hierarchical process with complementary, but different modes of change at its three large-scale levels: (a) variation within populations, (b) speciation, and (c) very long-term macroevolutionary trends. Speciation is not always an extension of gradual, adaptive allelic substitution, but may represent, as Goldschmidt argued, a different style of genetic change—rapid reorganization of the genome, perhaps nonadaptive. Macroevolutionary trends do not arise from the gradual, adaptive transformation of populations, but usually from a higher-order selection operating upon groups of species. Individual species generally do not change much after their “instantaneous” (in geological time) origin. These two discontinuities in the evolutionary hierarchy can be called the Goldschmidt break (change in populations is different from speciation) and the Wright break (speciation is different from macroevolutionary trending that translates differential success among different species).

A new and general evolutionary theory will embody this notion of hierarchy and stress a variety of themes either ignored or explicitly rejected by the modern synthesis: e.g., punctuational change at all levels, important nonadaptive change at all levels, control of evolution not only by selection, but equally by constraints of history, development, and architecture — thus restoring to evolutionary theory a concept of organism. — The Editor

Continue next post...

All you have done 9s respond with a rambling nonsense post off topic.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
According to Gundling, under the earlier model the traits Australopithecines shared with both humans and apes were not seen as decisive evidence of common ancestry. With the theoretical changes wrought under the Modern Synthesis, such evidence became far more compelling and the Australopithecine’s claim to a near relation with human beings was thereby improved.

So basically, the acceptance of Australopithecus as a human ancestor was due to the theoretical changes that occurred in evolutionary biology decades after the initial discovery of their fossils.
That's talking eighty years.

One author interprets Gundling's view regarding credibility of claims in science (particularly regarding Australopithecus), "the credibility of the claim of Australopithecine ancestry was chiefly determined by its plausibility within the evolutionary biology."
He writes, Quote...
The story I will tell is broader than this, following a methodological point set out by Shapin in his analysis of the place of credibility in the social studies of science (“credibility and the validity of a proposition ought to be one and the same.” ): “In principle, there is no limit to the considerations that might be relevant to securing credibility, and, therefore, no limit to the considerations to which the analyst of science might give attention.” The theoretical context of a claim might be relevant, just as, following Clark, the emotion with which a claim is put forward and defended might be relevant. The important thing, as Shapin writes, is that “the relevance of nothing can be ruled out in advance of empirical inquiry. The point of asking after credibility is not to criticize certain things as being inappropriate to the determination of credibility in paleoanthropology or to defend others as necessary to the alignment of credibility with truth or any other necessary precondition. The point is to find out, through empirical investigation of the documentary record, how scientists interested in human evolution negotiated the terms of the Australopithecine’s inclusion or exclusion from the human family tree”

Shapin’s inquiries into the nature of credibility serve as a good model to help orient us in what is a very broad framework of analysis. Admitting that “the picture framed by the unqualified study of credibility is just too big,” Shapin makes a number of distinctions to help identify the issue at stake. One set of useful distinctions concern what he calls “economies of credibility,” and one such economy he is that which obtains between experts and laity: How do claims made by scientific experts achieve credibility, or fail to do so, among the general public? Another is the economy obtaining between expert groups in different fields: How might a claim developed and accepted by paleoanthropologists achieve credibility among astrophysicists? Lastly, there is the economy of credibility obtaining between individual specialists within a scientific field. This essay will be largely concerned with this last type of economy as it manifested itself among specialists in human evolution during the Australopithecine debates, though issues pertaining to the other economies will occasionally interpolate themselves.
Unquote

This article mentions a lot about interpretations of evidence, the issue of personal relationships among scientists, personal insecurities, ambitions and motives of scientists, and how such relationships affected the dynamics of credibility in the debate, etc. They are human, after all.

However, to get back to Dart and the Australopithecine debates.
Dart pointed to a few observations, which led him to conclude that "Taung child" was a human ancestor - neither chimpanzee nor gorilla. One "who had parted ways with the ancestors of the living apes", on its way to a "glorious bipedal, big-brained future".
He pointed to features bearing more of a resemblance to humans than to apes.
He pointed to the position of the foramen magnum - the aperture through which the spinal column passes from the neck into the skull, noting that it was positioned farther forward on the base of the skull than in apes, although not so far forward as is seen in humans. Thus making the argument for a transition to bipedalism... as well as other features.
He also argued than an ape-like creature from the Central African jungles would have been subject to pressures to evolve in a human direction in order to survive. Natural selection.
Dart proposed creating an entirely new taxonomic family - Homo-simiadae, to accommodate his interpretation of Australopithecus as neither an ape nor a human, but a form that bridged the evolutionary gap between the two.

Leading British experts in the science of human evolution rejected all of those interpretations. They "questioned the evidential basis of his claim that Australopithecus was a human ancestor rather than just an interesting new form of ape", even though crediting him with high praise.
One wrote... “the fact that the fragments came immediately under notice of so competent an anatomist as Prof. Dart establishes confidence in the thoroughness of the scrutiny to which they have been subjected.”
Another... “no one is more competent than Prof. Dart to observe the evidence and interpret it.”

One of the leading experts, in response to Dart pointing out the position of the foramen magnum, said this... “We cannot be certain of posture until we find a bone of the lower limb. One cannot see any character in the skull which justifies the supposition of an erect posture.”
That, coming from a leading scientist. So what does that say about much of the conclusions drawn from pieces of skull, jawbone, and very little fossilized parts?

Source here.

I hope some of that information was useful. ;)

Rambling posrs are not useful at all.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
I have never heard of graceful parrots, but I guess there is room for them to learn... Maybe? :shrug: Hopefully...

Way to lead the way in demonstrating how gracefulness works and taking the high road instead of going in for one last kick and diminishing people as thoughtless parrots. :facepalm:
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you sure life did not come about by evolution? Came about by something.
We do not know how life originated, but that origin is not explained by the theory of evolution. Evolution works on existing life that has heritable variation. Evolution works even if it turns out that life started with a supported, divine creation.

It is the goal of every creationist that I have ever encountered to confuse and conflate the theory of evolution with the origin of life. Or so it seems since everyone of them has done this with few to no exceptions. Some continue to do it even after having the difference demonstrated.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Who's confused? Not me. I know that evolutionists do not consider the start of whatever (life?) on the earth to be part of what they say they absolutely know is -- evolution. They claim evolution has nothing to do with how life began. (Isn't that true?) Or, at best, it's a totally different subject, somehow not to be considered in reference to the evolution theory. (No wonder.) As if one item morphed (evolved after a while - to other things). (No proof.) Be that as it is, that is why I asked about water on other planets. It doesn't confuse me at all. That there are things called planets, yet no two are exactly alike, I'm figuring some evolutionists might project that "life" can start after a fortuitous chance-like meeting of elements. Kind of like maybe flying in from another area of space. See? :) Yes, this discussion has thoroughly helped about many things said to have come about by evolution. :)
No one has made claims that the theory is absolute. It is a scientific theory and certainly the most well supported one there is, but all scientific theories remain as tentative explanations subject to the discovery of new data.

The rest of what you post just seems to be repetitious.

I am glad you think the discussion helped you. Admittedly, from your posts I find it difficult to see where you have been helped.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I know what you're saying. But, moving along, they say water is on other planets, water?? So now let's see...maybe in a trillion years or so animal life will come about, with the right combo of elements. Mutate enough to become gorillas, elephants, fishes and, of course the human species? :) I know! Maybe astronauts will scatter a mix of molecules and the mutations will start. I suppose you may say it's possible. Likely?? :)
Maybe. I have no idea. You keep your eyes open and stay watching.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sounds like a commitment to tall tales too. YEC has a scientific arm? Closest thing they have equates to an entirely different body part.
It seems you all equate science with the Darwinian theory of evolution. Surely you don't think all science means evolution, do you? There is no doubt prejudice or lack of discernment among many here who uphold the theory of evolution. "Science" makes mistakes. For instance, not all vaccines, while tried, work. But I àppreciate the effort of those researchers to find a good vaccine, the test is in the efficacy. Trial and error. That you equate science with evolution as if they're in the same category entirely is sad indeed. No proof, no nothing but yes, conjecture of a Hollywood type sort. Sad indeed.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No one has made claims that the theory is absolute. It is a scientific theory and certainly the most well supported one there is, but all scientific theories remain as tentative explanations subject to the discovery of new data.

The rest of what you post just seems to be repetitious.

I am glad you think the discussion helped you. Admittedly, from your posts I find it difficult to see where you have been helped.
The only support is conjecture. That is what I find from your teachings and surmises.
 
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