Who make Jesus a God?

[Desert Snake]

Many christains worship Jesus which means worshipping a man + God.

No, you can worship Jesus and still believe God and Jesus are different.

 

[idav]

No, you can worship Jesus and still believe God and Jesus are different.

As you wish.

 

[Desert Snake]

As you wish.

[edit] anyways nevermind

 

[vczart]

hello !

well this forum call my attention...Yashua did said, he was God...and one of them in the bible is at John 10:30 he state that the father (refering to God )are one,there are many more time he refered to be the son of God...or the son of man.:yes:

 

[Shermana]

hello !

well this forum call my attention...Yashua did said, he was God...and one of them in the bible is at John 10:30 he state that the father (refering to God )are one,there are many more time he refered to be the son of God...or the son of man.:yes:

And he says later "Let them be one AS we are one".

So by that logic, he called to make the Disciples God too.

What he means is that they are one in purpose.

Even Trinitarian commentators admit this.

Commenting on John 10:30, J. H. Bernard, D.D. says in A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John:

“A unity of fellowship, of will, and of purpose between the Father and the Son is a frequent theme in the Fourth Gospel..., and it is tersely and powerfully expressed here; but to press the words so as to make them indicate identity of ousia [Greek for ‘substance,’ ‘essence’], is to introduce thoughts that were not present to the theologians of the first century."[1]

Even the very trinitarian New Testament Greek scholar W. E. Vine when discussing the Greek word for “one” says: “(b) metaphorically [figuratively], union and concord, e.g., John 10:30; 11:52; 17:11, 21, 22....” - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 809.

Trinitarian Professor William Barclay writing in his popular Daily Study Bible Series, The Gospel of John, Vol. 2, The Westminster Press, 1975, pp. 74, 75, 76 says:

“Now we come to the supreme claim [of John 10:30]. ‘I and the Father are one,’ said Jesus. What did he mean? Is it absolute mystery, or can we understand at least a little of it? Are we driven to interpret it in terms of essence and hypostasis and all the rest of the metaphysical and philosophic notions about which the makers of creeds fought and argued? Has one to be a theologian and a philosopher to grasp even a fragment of the meaning of this tremendous statement?

“If we go to the Bible itself for the interpretation,” continues Barclay, “we find that it is in fact so simple that the simplest mind can grasp it. Let us turn to the seventeenth chapter of John’s Gospel, which tells of the prayer of Jesus for his followers before he went to his death: ‘Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one’ (John 17:11). Jesus conceived of the unity of Christian with Christian as the same as his unity with God.”

“Here is the essence of the matter”, says Barclay. “The bond of unity is love; the proof of love is obedience. Christians are one with each other when they are bound by love, and obey the words of Christ. Jesus is one with God, because as no other ever did, he obeyed and loved him. His unity with God is a unity of perfect love, issuing in perfect obedience.[2]

"When Jesus said: ‘I and the father are one,’ he was not moving in the world of philosophy and metaphysics and abstractions; he was moving in the world of personal relationships. No one can really understand what a phrase like ‘a unity of essence’ means; but any one can understand what a unity of heart means. Jesus’s unity with God came from the twin facts of perfect love and perfect obedience. He was one with God because he loved and obeyed him perfectly....”

Finally, we need to be aware that the word “one” at John 10:30 and 17:22 is the neuter form hen. The two other forms for “one” are mia, which is the feminine form, and heis, the masculine form. Those who insist that John 10:30 means “the Father and I are one God” are clearly wrong as shown by New Testament Greek grammar alone. “God” in New Testament Greek is always masculine and must take masculine forms of adjectives, pronouns, etc. in agreement (see Mark 12:29, 32; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:4-6 in interlinear Bibles).

Or, as Dr. Marshall puts it in one of his basic NT Greek grammar rules:

“Adjectives must agree with the nouns they modify in number, gender,...and case”. - p. 25, Rule 7, New Testament Greek Primer, Alfred Marshall, Zondervan Publishing, 1978 printing. (Compare 1 Cor. 3:8 in interlinear Bible [esp. note footnote in The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English] with NIV; NAB; LB; and CBW.)

Therefore, the use of the neuter “one” (hen) at John 10:30 shows “one God” could not have been intended by Jesus but instead shows “metaphorically, union and concord”! As we have seen in the study on “Wisdom” (BWF), we may have gender irregularities when someone is described figuratively (“metaphorically”) such as “he is a Rock” or “Jesus is the Lamb,” but when he is being literally described we must have gender agreement.[3]

 

[gweber41]

In his earthly ministry, Jesus said and did many things that implied that he believed he was God. Why he didn't just come out and say it, I don't know although as someone mentioned earlier, he did claim to be God in Revelation. Some examples of these things that he did:

-Forgive sins (Mark 2:5-12). Jesus forgave the sins of a paralytic, and the crowds asked "Who is this that forgives sins? Only God can forgive sins." But Jesus came with the power to forgive sins, which is something that only God can do.

-"Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:48-59). This is probably the most convincing passage that Jesus believed himself to be God. In it, Jesus claims to be the eternal 'I am', a reference to how God revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush. The Jews recognized this and wanted to stone him.

-"No one knows the Father except the Son" (Luke 10:22). Jesus claims to be the Son of God often in Scriptures. Many people including myself would take that to mean he is divine in some way.

-"I and the Father are One" (John 10:22-39). Here the Jews themselves said to Jesus, you "make yourself God" and once again sought to stone him. Jesus went on and said "The Father is in me and I am in the Father." The Jews understood the significance of this and tried to arrest him for blaspheming God.'

-Additional proofs include command over nature, command over demons, raising the dead, speaking with exceptional authority or wisdom, and particular answers to questions posed to him. All of these I think can be explained away in a reasonable manner so I won't get into them in detail.

And then of course there are other testimonies to Jesus's divinity in the Bible outside of his life including
-Titus 2:13, our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
-John 5:18, ...making himself equal with God...
-John 1:1-14, The word was God...The Word became flesh...
-Isaiah 9:6 For unto us is born a child...and he shall be called...mighty God...

The Bible is somewhat confusing about whether Jesus is God or not because many times the New Testament refers to God the Father as God and Jesus often as Lord or Savior or even man. This does not contradict that Jesus is God though because it merely shows the different roles the persons of the Godhead perform. The Father has authority over the Son and sends out the Son and the Spirit. The Son submits to the will of the Father in every way so that his will is the Father's. Jesus said, I did not come to do my will but the will of him who sent me (John 6:38). And through the work of the Son and the Spirit, the Father is glorified (and vice versa). The relationship of the trinity is a mystery but I think it is clearly a biblical teaching.

I hope this helps anybody who's still reading this thread all the way on the fifth page!

 

[Muffled]

Well why don't you provide evidence?

Again i am using logic and reasoning that is my evidence in this case. If we had to define god we would use attributes so anything that does not have these attributes can automatically not be god.


Ok well let me try to ask you again how can God be Flesh when hes traits and attributes contradicts being flesh? Flesh is limited therefore he cannot be flesh even if he became flesh then this flesh wouldn't be limited since its god we are speaking off. If he becomes limited the trait of being unlimited is destroyed and therefore he is no longer god. So either he is a human with no limitation or either is not human.


This just made no sense.

I believe Jesus is evidence that God can inhabit flesh. I provided mine, so where is your evidence?

I don't believe I have seen any yet.

I went through this with a Trinitarian once but it only made him angry, lol. Jesus has all the attributes of God except observationally omnipresence. THe proble with observation is that it just sees the body but does not see the Spirit of God which is one Spirit throughout the universe. So i believe people devise some kind of disintegration of God into parts, one part in the body and the other part outside it but that device does not reflect reality. I believe it usaully goes the same way with the other attributes as well where people attribute bodily attributes when Jesus is also The Spirit of God.

He can't be made flesh because the spirit is spirit and the flesh is flesh. The passage in John says the Word became flesh ie that which was spoken to the prophets was not by flesh but by spirit but with God indwelling flesh the Word is spoken with the tongue. So it is that the attribute of God speaking through the spirit became the attribute of God speaking in the flesh.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus never said he was God. Some Christians accept this, some don't.

I believe you can say this until the cows come home but it doesn't change reality but only leaves you stuck with a fantasy.

BTW i have a post on here that isn't on the first page title "Did Jesus Say He is God?" It has a multitutde of pages and covers all the argumenst as far as I know.

 

[Muffled]

God is All Knowing at All Time About Everything - no knowledge is beyond Him.

But Jesus(pbuh) didn't know about the Day of Judgement according to Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father."

So Jesus(pbuh) being NOT 'All Knowing' could not be God - as simple as that.

There are two meanings to the word "know" but English doesn't separate the meanings out into different words. 1. Means to have information 2. means to experience.

Jesus is body and the Spirit of God. When the body goes away as temporal bodies do eventually then there is no Jesus. Evidently His body will go away before the world expires in 50 billion years or so (according to scientists). That doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't have the information as is evident from the text that He knows that the Father knows.

I believe it is only simple for the simple.

I believe this is where context enters in; there is ample biblical proof that Jesus knows things that only God could know, so it is less rational to believe that He doesn't know (information) when the world will end than to believe He doesn't know (experience) when the world ends.

 

[Renji]

the bible does not say Jesus is God....it refers to him as the son of God over and over.

It is people who claim he is God...specifically it began when Rome made christianity its state religion.... the Romans liked to worship gods, so they turned Jesus into a god to make it more palatable to the pagan worshipers. And they turned the pagan December 25th saturnalia celebration of the 'birth of sun' in the 'birth of the Son' of God, Jesus Christ.

No. Based on the teaching that Jesus is the Light of the World, Early Christians decided to celebrate His birth on that date, so that the pagans would think that they celebrate the birth of the sun god, but the truth is they celebrate the birth of the "man-God" (that time, Christians were being persecuted, so to avoid being persecuted and replace the pagan holiday,Dec 25 was the time they choose to celebrate the "Light" that Christ has brought into this world when He came), whom they believe is Jesus Christ, who is God in nature, but has manifested in flesh.

 

[Renji]

Politics made Jesus God as well as guiding the masses on how to interpret a trinity formula out of the bible making Jesus equal with God. Soon after the council of Nicaea they banished anyone who thought otherwise and burned any relevant literature that countered the creed.

Nicene Creed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;​

..says Da Vinci Code..

 

[F0uad]

I believe Jesus is evidence that God can inhabit flesh. I provided mine, so where is your evidence?

Belief itself is no evidence however logic and reasoning can be.

I don't believe I have seen any yet.

'
You don't have to be unfriendly when i criticize that teaching.

I went through this with a Trinitarian once but it only made him angry, lol. Jesus has all the attributes of God except observationally omnipresence. THe proble with observation is that it just sees the body but does not see the Spirit of God which is one Spirit throughout the universe. So i believe people devise some kind of disintegration of God into parts, one part in the body and the other part outside it but that device does not reflect reality. I believe it usaully goes the same way with the other attributes as well where people attribute bodily attributes when Jesus is also The Spirit of God.

Even if Jesus(pbuh) lacks one of the attributes that by definition makes him a lesser god or not a god also your argument fails we can clearly see in the Bible that Jesus(pbuh) is not all-knowing, all-powerful and the list continues.
You used the term "I belief" very often and i think this is because there is no logical explanation for it.

He can't be made flesh because the spirit is spirit and the flesh is flesh. The passage in John says the Word became flesh ie that which was spoken to the prophets was not by flesh but by spirit but with God indwelling flesh the Word is spoken with the tongue. So it is that the attribute of God speaking through the spirit became the attribute of God speaking in the flesh.

So your saying the verse is actually saying the opposite hmm strange interpretation but ok this still didn't solve the problem though.

 

[Desert Snake]

Belief itself is no evidence however logic and reasoning can be.

Lol every religion is belief.

 

[loverOfTruth]

There are two meanings to the word "know" but English doesn't separate the meanings out into different words. 1. Means to have information 2. means to experience.

Jesus is body and the Spirit of God. When the body goes away as temporal bodies do eventually then there is no Jesus. Evidently His body will go away before the world expires in 50 billion years or so (according to scientists). That doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't have the information as is evident from the text that He knows that the Father knows.

All you stated is some mumbo jumbo...we also know that the Father knows - does that mean we also have the information ?

I believe it is only simple for the simple.

I believe this is where context enters in; there is ample biblical proof that Jesus knows things that only God could know, so it is less rational to believe that He doesn't know (information) when the world will end than to believe He doesn't know (experience) when the world ends.

But Jesus(pbuh) himself states that he doesn't know this information - so that excludes him from being All Knowing and hence he cannot be God.

Note that if he doesn't know even a one minute thing, he cannot be God - God knows every single thing without exception. And God can give the knowledge He possesses to anyone He desires. Different prophets/messengers of God was given different knowledge and special miracles. So if someone was given a specific knowledge that no one except God has, doesn't make that person a God. So your argument is the most irrational one.