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Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I evaluated Ba'hai religion as false because of its ties to the Abrahamic God.

Baha'u'llah has a lot of wonderful sayings I'd love to believe.

I evaluated God as non existent too, so that's another reason Ba'hai religion is just pretty sayings without being real.
Yes, they believe that science and religion should agree... and that religion without science becomes very superstitious. But they continue, a possible superstitious belief, in believing in and following an unseeable and unknowable God. So, for the scientific minded, Baha'is expect them to believe in this invisible Spirit Being that sends his laws and judgements down to the people of the Earth through various special people that God calls "manifestations"? And then expect them not to demand more evidence about this God and his manifestations? Of course they demand it, but God doesn't provide it? God still expects them to take it on "faith"? Believing on "faith" has always led to problems. One thing I always bring up is that I'd hate to have been the last person stoned to death for "fooling" around before getting married or for have done some "work" on God's special day. Then the next day a new manifestation announces that God has changed the some of the laws and the penalties for some of those laws. Very superstitious.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I evaluated Ba'hai religion as false because of its ties to the Abrahamic God.

Baha'u'llah has a lot of wonderful sayings I'd love to believe.

I evaluated God as non existent too, so that's another reason Ba'hai religion is just pretty sayings without being real.

That’s how it always should be. We should never believe in anything we can’t accept. I was the same. I rejected God and all religion and that was right for me according to my investigation then. Now I have changed my views and we all have that right to believe what we feel is true to us.

But the thing is to me is that whatever you or I believe or don’t believe should not keep us from being friendly and kind to each other as we are both human. That is what matters to me here, not what we each believe, but that we are both human.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes, they believe that science and religion should agree... and that religion without science becomes very superstitious. But they continue, a possible superstitious belief, in believing in and following an unseeable and unknowable God. So, for the scientific minded, Baha'is expect them to believe in this invisible Spirit Being that sends his laws and judgements down to the people of the Earth through various special people that God calls "manifestations"? And then expect them not to demand more evidence about this God and his manifestations? Of course they demand it, but God doesn't provide it? God still expects them to take it on "faith"? Believing on "faith" has always led to problems. One thing I always bring up is that I'd hate to have been the last person stoned to death for "fooling" around before getting married or for have done some "work" on God's special day. Then the next day a new manifestation announces that God has changed the some of the laws and the penalties for some of those laws. Very superstitious.

The problem here is you are mixing your own interpretations of certain passages of scriptures without providing a reference to those verses as if your interpretation is accurate. Let us look at the specific verses you are speaking about and why certain actions needed to be taken.

For example. In those times of wandering in the desert both Moses and Muhammad had no access to correction facilities, jails, prisons, police, courts and judges. So how were the people to be protected from serial offenders such as serial killers and rapists? How would they best prevent reoccurrence of crimes in such an environment?

Only the harshest of penalties could ever hope to act as a deterrent to serial offending in that environment. Now imagine trying to keep law and order in a loose desert environment when people are secretly sleeping with married women. What disorder and rebellion it could cause, even civil war among the tribes. Penalties then were harsh to prevent worse outcomes from eventuating such as war not as acts of cruelty.

Now as to God and superstition and science. A non existent God cannot reveal virtues to us. Yet that is what the Prophets have done. Science has proven through Positive Psychology that virtues promote happiness, health and well-being. That through the acquisition of virtues, resilience is created which enables us to overcome many challenges in life as well as prevent depression and suicide. The foremost Teachers and Promoters of virtues and living a virtuous life have always been the Prophets of God. Therefore, science is confirming that the teachings of virtues that the Messengers bring are scientifically sound, not superstitious as you are claiming.

The belief that we can rely on shortcuts to happiness, joy, rapture, comfort, and ecstasy, rather than be entitled to these feelings by the exercise of personal strengths and virtues, leads to legions of people who in the middle of great wealth are starving spiritually. Positive emotion alienated from the exercise of character leads to emptiness, to inauthenticity, to depression, and, as we age, to the gnawing realization that we are fidgeting until we die. The positive feeling that arises from the exercise of strengths and virtues, rather than from the shortcuts, is authentic. (Seligman - Authentic Happiness)

Scientists are today confirming that what the Prophets have been teaching all along is in our best interests for a happy, healthy and fulfilling life.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Yes, they believe that science and religion should agree... and that religion without science becomes very superstitious. But they continue, a possible superstitious belief, in believing in and following an unseeable and unknowable God. So, for the scientific minded, Baha'is expect them to believe in this invisible Spirit Being that sends his laws and judgements down to the people of the Earth through various special people that God calls "manifestations"? And then expect them not to demand more evidence about this God and his manifestations? Of course they demand it, but God doesn't provide it? God still expects them to take it on "faith"? Believing on "faith" has always led to problems. One thing I always bring up is that I'd hate to have been the last person stoned to death for "fooling" around before getting married or for have done some "work" on God's special day. Then the next day a new manifestation announces that God has changed the some of the laws and the penalties for some of those laws. Very superstitious.
I agree with what you say. That kind of faith only leads to trouble. A God like that can only be cruel, and has one horrible truth.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I've been to lots of Baha'i firesides and been with Baha'is on "Mass Teaching" events. They were never confrontational. If a person was talked to that came from a Christian background, that first thing they were told was not, "Jesus is dead and he's not coming back... ever? Or, if an Atheist showed up at a fireside. Baha'is might try talking about how religion and science should go hand and hand. But here, we're not face to face, so it's too easy to blurt out things that, right from the start, put the other person on the defensive and they are going to attack the Baha'i beliefs. But, you know all that, and get out of those types of arguments, because they don't go anywhere. But.. they do make interesting and very long threads. But essentially saying, "Do you have proof?" "Yes, but you won't accept it" and a whole slew of variations of that.

But I know the problem... Even if Baha'is were as nice as can be and said very politely that, "This is what we believe and why we believe it", it would still cause a lot of debate and arguments. I just think that the way that some Baha'is present the Faith that it is nothing but an argument waiting to happen.

A Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian and Jew are sitting together discussing religion. Each one explains how his religion is uniquely true while the others are false. Instead of leading to friendship and agreement, it causes tension and disunity.

Baha’is are saying that they are all right, true and correct. That Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster and Moses all are Great Spiritual Educators to help us lead happier lives and live in harmony.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
The problem here is you are mixing your own interpretations of certain passages of scriptures without providing a reference to those verses as if your interpretation is accurate. Let us look at the specific verses you are speaking about and why certain actions needed to be taken.

For example. In those times of wandering in the desert both Moses and Muhammad had no access to correction facilities, jails, prisons, police, courts and judges. So how were the people to be protected from serial offenders such as serial killers and rapists? How would they best prevent reoccurrence of crimes in such an environment?

Only the harshest of penalties could ever hope to act as a deterrent to serial offending in that environment. Now imagine trying to keep law and order in a loose desert environment when people are secretly sleeping with married women. What disorder and rebellion it could cause, even civil war among the tribes. Penalties then were harsh to prevent worse outcomes from eventuating such as war not as acts of cruelty.

Now as to God and superstition and science. A non existent God cannot reveal virtues to us. Yet that is what the Prophets have done. Science has proven through Positive Psychology that virtues promote happiness, health and well-being. That through the acquisition of virtues, resilience is created which enables us to overcome many challenges in life as well as prevent depression and suicide. The foremost Teachers and Promoters of virtues and living a virtuous life have always been the Prophets of God. Therefore, science is confirming that the teachings of virtues that the Messengers bring are scientifically sound, not superstitious as you are claiming.

The belief that we can rely on shortcuts to happiness, joy, rapture, comfort, and ecstasy, rather than be entitled to these feelings by the exercise of personal strengths and virtues, leads to legions of people who in the middle of great wealth are starving spiritually. Positive emotion alienated from the exercise of character leads to emptiness, to inauthenticity, to depression, and, as we age, to the gnawing realization that we are fidgeting until we die. The positive feeling that arises from the exercise of strengths and virtues, rather than from the shortcuts, is authentic. (Seligman - Authentic Happiness)

Scientists are today confirming that what the Prophets have been teaching all along is in our best interests for a happy, healthy and fulfilling life.

I didn't learn virtues from a God. I mainly learned them from my mother. I agree with what you say about virtues though, they are the path to peace, joy, and fulfillment.

I figure human knowledge of virtues is a product of the necessity of language, action and expression. Until a person experiences virtues they may never understand what they are in any meaningful sense. Fortunately, I believe out of human experience and relationship, we have good languages to give us words that convey them.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
People on this forum are always asking me why I believe that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be.
That is a very fair question given the boldness of His claims.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

From: https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

When people ask me why I believe in Baha’u’llah I tell them I looked at the ‘evidence’ that supports His claims. The usual response is “that’s not evidence.” However, it is by definition evidence and it is objective evidence.

The reason that it is objective evidence is because we can examine and evaluate the evidence since there are actual facts surrounding the Person, the Life, and the Mission of Baha'u'llah. This is evidence that supports His claims although it is not proof. Nobody can ever ‘prove’ that a man is a Messenger of God, except to themselves. If it could be proven it would be a fact and not a religious belief.

If people want to know if Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be they have to evaluate the evidence for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

Andrew Mancey | May 29, 2022

The views expressed in our content reflect individual perspectives and do not represent the official views of the Baha'i Faith.

Today many people deny the existence of God. Discouraged by the confused state of religion – how can only one be right and the others condemned? – such a state of mind can easily lead us to pessimism or depression.

This skepticism about the existence of a divine Creator has happened, at least partly, because the original teachings of the founders of religion have become confused with superstitions that conflict with science.

The advent of Baha’u’llah – the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith – has dramatically altered that perception, not only because he founded the most recent global religion, but because his nascent Faith renews the promise of the reality of God.

Also, while some historians have called into question the traditional accounts of the lives of past prophets, the remarkable record of Baha’u’llah’s life has a solid historical foundation. We know how and where he lived – and yet, we also know that he lived a life unlike that of a man, but comparable to the life of Jesus or Muhammad.

RELATED: Baha’u’llah’s Book of Certitude: Illuminating Spiritual Wisdom

What Baha’u’llah brought into the world and what he did to spread those teachings to all people offer us clear evidence of the role of the Creator in the course of human history.

In fact, his example vindicates the accounts of previous messengers and prophets of God. In his writings, Baha’u’llah specifically affirmed the divine nature of the missions and teachings of those previous messengers. However, he also stressed the need for new spiritual and social teachings in this modern age, and condemned the divisions and superstitious beliefs which have accumulated in religion and society.

If Baha’u’llah is the divine messenger he claimed to be, then his explanations of the nature of God, the purpose of life, and of the eternal existence of the soul sweep aside centuries of confusion and perplexity and construct a common foundation for all religions in harmony with science. So let’s look, very briefly, at some of the attributes and achievements of Baha’u’llah.

His Character

Abdu’l-Baha, the son and successor of Baha’u’llah, described his father’s early days and how he lived, saying that Baha’u’llah:

… belonged to the nobility of Persia. From earliest childhood He was distinguished among His relatives and friends. They said, “This child has extraordinary power.” In wisdom, intelligence and as a source of new knowledge, He was advanced beyond His age and superior to His surroundings. All who knew Him were astonished at His precocity. It was usual for them to say, “Such a child will not live,” for it is commonly believed that precocious children do not reach maturity. During the period of youth the Blessed Perfection did not enter school. He was not willing to be taught. This fact is well established among the Persians of Ṭihran. Nevertheless, He was capable of solving the difficult problems of all who came to Him. In whatever meeting, scientific assembly or theological discussion He was found, He became the authority of explanation upon intricate and abstruse questions presented.

His Writings

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah’s writings reveal the word of God for this day and age. Baha’u’llah began writing tablets, letters, epistles and entire books in the 1850s, and that revelation continued until he left this world in 1892. Together, his writings constitute more than a hundred volumes. Never before has humankind received such a voluminous, powerful spiritual gift.

In 1912, while traveling and speaking in North America, Abdu’l-Baha characterized the scope and substance of Baha’u’llah’s writings. He said:

The Tablets of Baha’u’llah are many. The precepts and teachings they contain are universal, covering every subject. He has revealed scientific explanations ranging throughout all the realms of human inquiry and investigation—astronomy, biology, medical science, etc. In the [Book of Certitude] He has given expositions of the meanings of the Gospel and other heavenly Books. He wrote lengthy Tablets upon civilization, sociology and government. Every subject is considered. His Tablets are matchless in beauty and profundity. Even His enemies acknowledge the greatness of Baha’u’llah, saying He was the miracle of humanity.

Across the great breadth and depth of Baha’u’llah’s writings, we find the laws and teachings humanity needs to address our contemporary problems and form the basis for a new, peaceful global civilization.

Baha’u’llah’s most important teaching – the fundamental oneness of all humanity – affirms that we are all members of one race with one origin. All prejudices, whether racial, religious, national, or gender-based must be eradicated, he said. We are destined to work together, men and women, for our common benefit. We need to be of service to all.

A New World Order

The scriptures of the great Faiths all offer us prophecies of a better world to come. Throughout history, philosophers have consistently written about such a fruitful future – the promised “Golden Age” of human civilization.

Baha’u’llah’s teachings make those promises real. In the Baha’i writings, they become much more specific, outlining and describing a roadmap for what needs to be done to achieve this long-promised objective.

Toward these goals, the global Baha’i community has been developing essential skills such as community-building, promoting world unity, and decision-making using peaceful consultation rather than conflict, all based on Baha’u’llah’s teachings. In addition, Baha’is raise their children to become global citizens who live according to spiritual principles and dedicate themselves to serving humanity.

Prophecies fulfilled

For Christians, the 1800’s represented a time of great expectation. Many Biblical prophecies were understood by Christian scholars to predict the return of Christ around the years 1843 or 1844. Prophecies from the Old Testament, such as Isaiah and Daniel, aligned with prophecies from the Gospels and Revelation. These prophecies indicated not only the time of a great renewal, but also the places and circumstances involved.

Muslims experienced similar excitement around that same time. Prophecies from Sunni and Shi’a traditions also foretold the appearance of the Promised One in the year 1844, the year 1260 in the Muslim calendar.

RELATED: The Passing and Ascension of Baha’u’llah

The Baha’i revelation, which began in 1844 with the revelation of the Bab, Baha’u’llah’s herald and predecessor, fulfills those prophecies. Baha’u’llah did not deny the previous prophets – instead, he included them in his profound concept of progressive revelation, the Baha’i belief that a loving Creator sends His messengers to people when they are in need of renewed spiritual guidance.

Baha’u’llah wrote about this chain of successive messengers: “These Mirrors will everlastingly succeed each other, and will continue to reflect the light of the Ancient of Days.” He described all of God’s holy prophets by saying:

Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory.

Baha’is believe that every person is responsible for their own actions – and that accordingly, we all need to investigate the truth for ourselves. Anyone with an open mind who investigates Baha’u’llah will likely find it difficult to deny that he was more than an ordinary man, and that his teachings are divine in origin. Baha’is everywhere urge everyone to look into Baha’u’llah’s life, claims, and teachings, and decide the truth for themselves.

https://bahaiteachings.org/Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims

greetings on the one hand there are some doctrines Bahi endorse that I do not believe. That said I fined the seeking for unity among various beliefs inspiring. Over all I think that what we have in common is more than our differences.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
A human exists first.

O planet self reactive exists. Heavens reactive exists.

In presence of biology man knows exactly what types of ground or heavens reactions supports life existing. As a bio human.

Peaceful only.

No carpenter tectonic earthquake.
No storms of any type. Supports life.

Human.

A human then chooses all variant topics and subjects themselves that are not linked.

First position of a human theist is a liar as no man is God.

Exact teaching.

So you gain express a human message. Humans natural memory review is a holy father holy mother experience. Not God. Human first.

Correct position advised and messages human propose human only are spiritual. Exact holy human life only.

Parents memories both said I was an eternal spirit. In the eternal. God O earth forced us to leave. By its heavens caused change by a sun attack.

Put pressure onto the eternal body that does exist on the other side of space. Space being the owner removed burnt eternal body. Heavens caused it. Gods heavens caused our life to leave natural eternal.

Father explained | ...pretend heavens is one side the eternal on the other.

The heavens owning empty spaces fill in.

| ....heavens immaculate suddenly pressure explodes in sun attack.
|..... ) | )))))))))) Vibration changes in eternal body caused by heavens change. On the other side.

|))))))))))) Changes eternal body.
Cooling heavens |((((((((((((((.
((((((((((((((( | cooling status then Caused eternal to come out.

A one of instance only.

Where spirit life came from.

Father said before dinosaurs on earth once man was originally living on earth first. With no animals just garden.

Invented science. Animals then came out of spirit. His human life body changed.

Then by machines he destroyed all life on earth. Earth however survived. Machine parts plus human artefacts instant snap frozen inside heated fusion as the proof.

A human as archaeologist knew. So chose the topic I will dig deep into earth to or prove it.

Ice existed then also but had melted to hold fusion on earth the proof.

Dinosaurs then lived on earth with garden nature. No ice hot climate.

Earth Inherited man's of science old cosmic causes star fall.... all bio life died snap frozen then thawed. Garden survived.

New spirit animals then returned as did humans as the scientist.

Is exact humans advice I came back out of the eternal. As the heavens mass cooled had reacted again. Dinosaur life eradicated.

Is exact is his own man human adult memories why.

So he said sacrificed life of man was heavenly recorded already. Old humans memories only before dinosaur lived.

Position man human returning first one only position once was the eternal. A memory only. We've never returned since. We've been living since.

As per advice life destroyed ice saviour inherited on earth was involving the sacrificed life of dinosaurs not man.

So if any theist is pretending we keep coming from the eternal now is lying. We live only by human sex.

It was a one of humans memory only.



As waters created history came from the eternal too thought burning cooling. Upon heaven entry the eternal body changed into the highest eternal presence.

Biology just mainly water yet proves it's own self presence too as a higher state of a pre being.

Proof man theist star fell science conscious theoried. By inherited incoming newly caused science messages. Of his past self idolisation a theist and a scientist.

As no man is God.

Legal documents said don't self idolise as men of science changed human consciousness a second time by reactive nuclear machines.

Man's natural science advice by star fall was first.

Second position changed body mind nuclear science.

Third position I was sacrificed by Christ fall of heavens spirits as a message yes I did it to myself correlation.

Three times I consciously have never heeded my own father man human advice don't practice Alchemy science it's evil.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, someone's character does not prove that they can speak to God. I am not quite sure how you would reach this conclusion.
No, it doesn't prove that. Anyone can have a good character but that does not make them a Messenger of God.
The only evidence that can demonstrate that someone has spoken to God is evidence that they have spoken to God.
What would be evidence that someone has spoken to God?
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I just a quick look at what "Welfarist Utilitarianism" is all about. Already, it sounds as interesting and as important as the things Baha'is say they want for humanity. But is God even a necessary and important part in Welfarist Utilitarianism?

No, I am a gnostic atheist.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
So many things in the Baha'i Faith are vague enough to where they can be almost anything they want them to be. Here's what I found...
The Báb referred to Noah as a Manifestation of God who came after Adam,[1] and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá confirmed the Biblical genealogy designating Adam as an ancestor of the Patriarchs in the Bible.[2]

Bahá’u’lláh refers to Noah in the Kitab-i-Iqan describing Him as a Prophet who attempted to bring security to His people through His teachings and being persecuted as a result writing:

"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him!"[3]

He also noted Noah was attached to material things and the traditions of His forefathers prior to His Revelation describing Him and His followers as being reborn through His acceptance of God's Message:

"For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life."
Here's a Baha'i article that lists the usual names...
Throughout the ages, humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities have been cultivated by the Founders of the great religions, among them Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muḥammad, and—in more recent times—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.

These Figures are not simply ordinary people with a greater knowledge than others. Rather they are Manifestations of God, Who have exerted an incomparable influence on the evolution of human society.​
Here's an article that includes Adam on the list...
Bahá’u’lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Himself, were included in this definition.

In the Bahá’í definition, there is a distinction between minor prophets and major Prophets, also referred to as lesser/greater, dependent/independent, follower/universal, and other similar phrases. The major Prophets are referred to as the Manifestations of God, and compared to the sun, which produces its own heat and light. The minor prophets are likened to the moon, which receives its light from the sun.

Moses, for example, is taught as having been a major Prophet and his brother Aaron a minor prophet. Moses spoke on behalf of God, and Aaron spoke on behalf of Moses.(Exodus 4:14-17) Other Jewish prophets came in the shadow of the dispensation of Moses to develop and consolidate the process he set in motion...

Bahá’ís believe that God has always sent Messengers and Prophets whose messages have reached every people. Although Bahá’u’lláh mentioned several figures as Manifestations, this list is meant to imply who are the greater-prophets who still have followers in the world. Therefore Adam, Noah and other figures are still regarded as Manifestations.​
So, who's a "manifestation" and who's not? I'm just going by what these articles said. But, whether or not Noah was a manifestation, wasn't the only problem. Part of what Baha'u'llah said about Noah was that he was 950 years old. But we know Baha'is don't believe that. So, he was being "symbolic"? So, some things he says aren't literally true? That would really make things interesting.

I learned a lot from this – thanks!
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Absolute certainty?

It depends on what you mean by "absolute certainty."

For instance, in Boolean statistics, the likelihood of a given state being true or false is 1/2 either way. However, if you have 198 iterations, and each one ends up "true," then there is a 199/200 chance that the next iteration will be true.

This is 99.5% certain, but rounded to the nearest integer it is 100% certain.

I have examined over 198 god-claims and I have found each one unlikely to be true, which means that I have a 100% certainty that there are no gods (due to the Law of Excluded Middle). I have yet to find a god-claim that I thought was likely to be true, but if I ever do then I will be a theist.

As such, I can say that I am certain that there are no gods. According to Bayesian epistemology, this means that I am also justified in claiming that there are no gods, and since I am justified in claiming that this statement is true I am also justified in claiming that I know it.

However, the existence of a god is not necessarily logically impossible. Gods violate none of the laws of logic. So I do think it is possible that gods exist. Indeed, it is quite possible that someone has already proven that gods exist and I am merely ignorant about their evidence.

Nonetheless, with the information I have available to me, I am 100% certain that I know that there are no gods. I have and will continue to re-examine my position on this matter based on new evidence, though.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

Bahaullah had only claims but he had no direct Converse with G-d as did Moses and Jesus have, Kitab-e-Iqan certifies it.

Regards
I know where Baha'u'llah said that Moses held converse with God...
I don't know where He said that Jesus held converse with God...

Having direct converse with God was not a claim of Baha'u'llah, the claim was that God spoke to Him through the Holy Spirit and taught Him the knowledge of all that hath been.

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90


“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
However, the existence of a god is not necessarily logically impossible. Gods violate none of the laws of logic. So I do think it is possible that gods exist. Indeed, it is quite possible that someone has already proven that gods exist and I am merely ignorant about their evidence.
Evidence and proof is not what makes God exist. Logically speaking, God either exists or not.
Evidence and proof are just what people want in order to believe that God exists. God could exist and if God provided no evidence of His existence there would be no evidence thereof. That is not what I believe happened, as I believe there is evidence, so this is hypothetical.

I do not believe that anyone can ever prove that God exists because God is not subject to proofs.
All we can ever do is prove to ourselves that God exists and then we believe.
Nonetheless, with the information I have available to me, I am 100% certain that I know that there are no gods. I have and will continue to re-examine my position on this matter based on new evidence, though.
With the information I have available to me, I am 100% certain that God exists. I have examined and re-examined this position but I keep ending up with the same conclusion. I believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient because that makes sense to me, but I am not willing to go out on a limb and say that I believe that God has all the other attributes that believers say He has. I just don't know and I don't think anyone can know.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I know where Baha'u'llah said that Moses held converse with God...
I don't know where He said that Jesus held converse with God...

Having direct converse with God was not a claim of Baha'u'llah, the claim was that God spoke to Him through the Holy Spirit and taught Him the knowledge of all that hath been.

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90


“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104
So, Bahaullah was not a Messenger/Prophet of G-d like Moses and Jesus.

Regards
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Evidence and proof is not what makes God exist. Logically speaking, God either exists or not.

Of course, and I have never claimed nor intentionally implied otherwise. In fact, I genuinely have never met a single person who thought that evidence causes existence. As such, I am not quite sure why you felt the need to state this?

Evidence and proof are just what people want in order to believe that God exists. God could exist and if God provided no evidence of His existence there would be no evidence thereof. That is not what I believe happened, as I believe there is evidence, so this is hypothetical.

Indeed, and Russel's teapot could be in space.

I do not believe that anyone can ever prove that God exists because God is not subject to proofs.

I suspect that we are using very different definitions of "evidence" and "proof." Proof, to me, is a facet of mathematics, and this includes statistical proofs based on mathematical statistics. These proofs are used quite frequently in conjunction with observation in the natural sciences.

Perhaps when you think of proving something, that carries the connotation that what you have proven has been shown to be necessarily true and that it is impossible for something proven to be false. Proof here would therefore be in the narrow sense of deductive argumentation.

If that's the case, I agree that the vast majority of claims cannot be deductively proven. I cannot even deductively prove that you exist or that I have a physical body.

All we can ever do is prove to ourselves that God exists and then we believe.

I think this is true for all beliefs, if I understand you correctly, but genuine proof is objective and can stand on its own.

With the information I have available to me, I am 100% certain that God exists. I have examined and re-examined this position but I keep ending up with the same conclusion. I believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient because that makes sense to me, but I am not willing to go out on a limb and say that I believe that God has all the other attributes that believers say He has. I just don't know and I don't think anyone can know.

Obviously, I do not share your certainty.
 
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