Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[KWED]

I am only saying that Baha'is have to be married if they want to have sex, according to Baha'i Law, and that Law only applies to Baha'is.

What is the logical and rational foundation for that law? (You reply: It's god's word). So why is it god's word? Why does god not like unmarried sex? (YA: I don't know. I just follow god's word).

It is not a fact that sex out of wedlock is immoral. All I can ever have is a personal opinion.

But Bahaullah said it is. And you have said that you have to go by what he wrote. You have to follow god's law. So it isn't "your opinion". You are claiming it is an objective fact.

It is not a fact that sex out of wedlock is moral. All you can ever have is a personal opinion.

Indeed. Morality is subjective. However, civilised society has generally moved on from ancient superstition and intolerance.
But the, you said that you reject social morals if they clash with god's law.

When you stop for a red light, are you 'blindly following' the law?

No, because I understand and can explain the principle behind the law. It is to avoid collisions, reducing disruption, injury and death - which has many obvious and quantifiable social and personal benefits. Something you can't do with the Bahai law on unmarried sex.
Do you really think that stopping at a red light is just a random proclamation that we can't expect to understand and must obey as an act of faith?

 

[KWED]

No, His Writings came from a revelation from God. Nothing was invented or based upon pre-existing beliefs. What He knew as either from His innate knowledge or from God.

What are you on about? You just admitted that he was raised as a Muslim. Now you are claiming that he wasn't.
*flip*

No, it is my belief.

Which is your opinion. Words have meanings. Your ignorance of those meanings is irrelevant.

Belief: Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion. (Oxford English Dictionary)
Opinion: The beliefs or views of a group or majority of people. (Oxford English Dictionary)

 

[KWED]

The burden of proof only applies to courts of law where proof is necessary to prosecute a crime but atheists want to apply it to everything a believer says...This is comical at best.

Oh dear.

Burden of proof (philosophy)
"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim"
Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

But you claimed that you disagree with some of it, so you do rely on your personal opinion at times, when it suits you.

I have personal opinions but I do not rely upon my personal opinions.
If I disagree with what Baha'u'llah wrote, I adhere to what Baha'ullah wrote = the Will of God rather than relying upon my own personal opinions.

 

[Trailblazer]

everyone watching will conclude that you just made it up.

Ask me if I care.
Do you really think anyone else cares?
Only you and one other person here are paying any attention to this silliness.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I have personal opinions but I do not rely upon my personal opinions.
If I disagree with what Baha'u'llah wrote, I adhere to what Baha'ullah wrote = the Will of God rather than relying upon my own personal opinions.

He will probably never understand or want to accept that you believe the way you do. No matter what you say, he will always find a way to turn it around, and claim you have no clue about your own belief.

 

[KWED]

I can but I won't because I already know it would only lead to an argument.

No, it would settle this argument - the one about whether or not I made the claim that you insist I made, and that is illustrated in many places on this thread.
You started the argument by making a false claim and then refusing to either back it up or withdraw it. Only you can end it.

I am not stupid.

Then why keep pretending that you are?

Also ironic that @Seeker of White Light rated your post "winner". Just mind boggling the levels on cognitive dissonance.

 

[KWED]

I do not have to agree or disagree, I can say "I don't know."
I do not necessarily disagree but I 'question' whether God is all-loving.

You literally just said... "I do not agree with everything Baha'u'llah wrote"!
Just as I predicted, another flip flop.

 

[KWED]

A group of men have decided, based on the words of a man who believes that God spoke to him, on something with which Tb disagrees, but accepts.

To be fair, @Trailblazer did also say that they agree with it, as well as disagreeing and accepting. Nothing like covering your bases, eh?

 

[KWED]

A group of men have decided at the council of Nicaea that Jesus is God, based on a misinterpretation of words in the New Testament, is what samtonga43 agrees with and accepts as the truth. Doesn't sound very reliable to me, but I won't call you ignorant, just hoodwinked by a bunch of men.

Whataboutery - the last refuge of a failed argument.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You literally just said... "I do not agree with everything Baha'u'llah wrote"!
Just as I predicted, another flip flop.

The answer could be that @Trailblazer do not understand everything Baha'u'llah teaching, and by that do not agree fully, it could also mean she struggle to understand why God gives her so much hardships throughout her life.

As a believer it take time even years to comprehend everything within the teaching.
Doubt is a part of being a human being.

 

[KWED]

Have to admire your dedication there!

 

[KWED]

We can disagree and still realize we are wrong and Baha'u'llah was right since He was infallible and we are not.

If we disagree, some of us realize we have an ego problem, but others drop out because they cannot overcome their ego problem and they think they 'know more' than Baha'u'llah, which is logically impossible if He was infallible.

So in the end it all boils down to -- Was Baha'u'llah who He claimed to be? If so, we would be foolish and illogical to think we 'know more' than He knew.

There is plenty of room for questioning and many things to question, but for Baha'is there is no room for doubt that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, and that is all the matters at the end if the day and at the end of this life, that and the way we lived our lives...

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

This whole position is based on question begging.
You keep claiming that Bahaullah was infallible, but you can't give a reason for claiming this other than Bahaullah himself claiming he as infallible. That is circular logic 101.

What's more, you have also stated that you disagree with some of his writings. How can you do that if you believe he is infallible?

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the logical and rational foundation for that law? (You reply: It's god's word). So why is it god's word? Why does god not like unmarried sex? (YA: I don't know. I just follow god's word).

It is God's word because Baha'u'llah speaks for God. That is the only way I can know God's will.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 34

But Bahaullah said it is. And you have said that you have to go by what he wrote. You have to follow god's law. So it isn't "your opinion". You are claiming it is an objective fact.

Religion is based upon beliefs, not facts. Religious laws are not facts because facts can be proven. It is my personal opinion which is the same as my belief.

Indeed. Morality is subjective. However, civilised society has generally moved on from ancient superstition and intolerance.
But the, you said that you reject social morals if they clash with god's law.

When it comes to matters of sexual behavior, modern society is morally bankrupt.

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

No, because I understand and can explain the principle behind the law. It is to avoid collisions, reducing disruption, injury and death - which has many obvious and quantifiable social and personal benefits. Something you can't do with the Bahai law on unmarried sex.
Do you really think that stopping at a red light is just a random proclamation that we can't expect to understand and must obey as an act of faith?

Having sex only in marriage has many obvious and quantifiable social and personal benefits.
I could not even begin to list them all. Adultery, broken families, divorces are the result of sex out of wedlock...
86% of women who have abortions are unmarried women. The list goes on.

 

[KWED]

Ask me if I care.
Do you really think anyone else cares?
Only you and one other person here are paying any attention to this silliness.

One would think that if a person spends considerable time on a debate forum, arguing for and defending their beliefs, they wouldn't want to be seen as dishonest and making stuff up - although I accept that there are people like Trump and Johnson who simply don't care if people know they are liars, as long as the lies have their desired effect. But surely that kind of thing is frowned upon by the Bahai god?

 

[Spirit of Light]

One would think that if a person spends considerable time on a debate forum, arguing for and defending their beliefs, they wouldn't want to be seen as dishonest and making stuff up - although I accept that there are people like Trump and Johnson who simply don't care if people know they are liars, as long as the lies have their desired effect. But surely that kind of thing is frowned upon by the Bahai god?

@Trailblazer isn't lying at all.

 

[KWED]

If I disagree with what Baha'u'llah wrote, I adhere to what Baha'ullah wrote = the Will of God rather than relying upon my own personal opinions.

By believing that some of god's word is wrong, you are negating the whole concept of an infallible god.

(I predict something along the lines of... "I don't think he's wrong, I just disagree with him")

 

[Trailblazer]

What are you on about? You just admitted that he was raised as a Muslim. Now you are claiming that he wasn't.
*flip*

No, I am not claiming He was not raised as a Muslim. He was raised as a Muslim but His Writings came from a revelation from God.

I said: No, His Writings came from a revelation from God. Nothing was invented or based upon pre-existing beliefs. What He knew as either from His innate knowledge or from God.

 

[KWED]

He will probably never understand or want to accept that you believe the way you do. No matter what you say, he will always find a way to turn it around, and claim you have no clue about your own belief.

Careful with that irony, it burns.
As I have already explained to you multiple times, I completely understand what she (and you) believes, and why. I am simply pointing out the errors and contradictions in the arguments used to support those beliefs.
Hope this helped.

 

[Trailblazer]

He will probably never understand or want to accept that you believe the way you do. No matter what you say, he will always find a way to turn it around, and claim you have no clue about your own belief.

Of course I know that, but this is just a silly game for me. I play it only till I get bored.